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Randy Moss...Just 2 full years with a HOF QB...Brady
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
Quote:
Look at the defenses that they faced. 0 were ranked in the top 10 in PPG. Goes back to your argument against Culpepper...


I don't see how.

The Culpepper argument goes something like this.

Culpepper played 6 years with Moss and was damn near MVP level in most of them. But it's obvious that he didn't really need Moss, because look at this neat little 4 game stretch in that 6 years career. See? TEH PROOPHZZZ....but make sure you don't look at what happens after those 6 years, that is not teh relevance!!!! Dat 4 game stretch doe...

Collins at least played at a level he never played before for a while more than half a season. I don't see how that compares to the Cullpepper thing, regardless of what defenses they faced. Collins was never even a great QB, Culpepper was making most top 3 lists.

So either way, Randy Moss couldn't help Kerry and Daunte help read defenses better. I guess we can hold that against him.


Yea, that's not what I said. When you're interested in addressing that, feel free to get back to me. Until then, continue on with the snarkyness.

And frankly, you know nothing of my views on Culpepper if you're trying to argue the last sentence.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand how any of that relates to the Culpepper argument at all. So you're saying Collins lighting up non-top 10 defenses for that stretch somehow goes back to my argument against Culpepper struggling more often than not against good defenses and lighting up bad ones.... I do not understand how any of this is relevant when I said that Moss actually amplified Collins' production. I'm pretty sure Collins never had a stretch like that regardless of the quality of defenses he faced in a long career.
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Last edited by Mossburg on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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x0x


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to throw some more wood on the fire.


Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN?
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steelcurtain29


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does Moss get a pass for playing with bad QB's? Rice's best season came with about 1/3 of it coming from someone who wasn't a HoF QB
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelcurtain29 wrote:
How does Moss get a pass for playing with bad QB's? Rice's best season came with about 1/3 of it coming from someone who wasn't a HoF QB


I don't think there's any "pass", nor do I think Moss played with "bad" QBs. I think even the worst QBs Moss played with can at the very least be labeled as "competent". It's just the impact he had on those QBs and their production is staggering. I mean his 1st season with a truly elite QB, even when Moss was past his prime, he had one of the best seasons ever.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
I don't understand how any of that relates to the Culpepper argument at all. So you're saying Collins lighting up non-top 10 defenses for that stretch somehow goes back to my argument against Culpepper struggling more often than not against good defenses and lighting up bad ones.... I do not understand how any of this is relevant when I said that Moss actually amplified Collins' production. I'm pretty sure Collins never had a stretch like that regardless of the quality of defenses he faced in a long career.


It's relevant because your argument against Culpepper was based on the quality of defenses...I was pointing out that the same was true of Collins.

Collins never had a stretch like that?
With Moss, that 8 game stretch(P.S. Moss didn't do much over the final 4 games of that stretch): 12 TDs 3 ints
8 game stretch in 2000 with Giants: 13 TDs 4 ints(Game 7 to 14)

The point of the matter wasn't ever dismissing Moss from Culpepper's success, it was how much credit he deserved. And frankly, the argument started with you claiming that 2005 was a better indicator of how he'd play in 2004 without Moss than 2004 without Moss was. Kind of ridiculous.

Not to say that he didn't "need" Moss that year. That was an incorrect comment but you were exaggerating your point as well.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
steelcurtain29 wrote:
How does Moss get a pass for playing with bad QB's? Rice's best season came with about 1/3 of it coming from someone who wasn't a HoF QB


I don't think there's any "pass", nor do I think Moss played with "bad" QBs. I think even the worst QBs Moss played with can at the very least be labeled as "competent". It's just the impact he had on those QBs and their production is staggering. I mean his 1st season with a truly elite QB, even when Moss was past his prime, he had one of the best seasons ever.


And yet he had numerous years with truly elite passing game production from his QBs.
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Mossburg


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The point of the matter wasn't ever dismissing Moss from Culpepper's success, it was how much credit he deserved. And frankly, the argument started with you claiming that 2005 was a better indicator of how he'd play in 2004 without Moss than 2004 without Moss was. Kind of ridiculous.



How the hell did you come to that conclusion? Laughing

I never said, or even implied, or can even see how anyone could think I would be implying that. I was simply pointing out that saying that Culpepper had a good stretch without Moss against terrible defenses as proof that he didn't need Moss to be a great QB is ridiculous.

Quote:
And yet he had numerous years with truly elite passing game production from his QBs.


That's called eternal greatness achieved by very few.
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lionslicer


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x0x wrote:
Just to throw some more wood on the fire.


Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN?


Actually it was done exclusively by NFL films.

Anyways he was #65, but what is surprising that he was the 3rd receiver behind Hudson and Rice.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossburg wrote:
How the hell did you come to that conclusion? Laughing

I never said, or even implied, or can even see how anyone could think I would be implying that. I was simply pointing out that saying that Culpepper had a good stretch without Moss against terrible defenses as proof that he didn't need Moss to be a great QB is ridiculous.


Which was never the argument that I set out to make.

Quote:
That's called eternal greatness achieved by very few.


Not sure what you're getting at here.
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Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sayheykid wrote:

As a general rule Michael Vick and better QB play don't belong in the same conversation. At least not as a passer, and certainly not for his wide receivers.


Vick has never been an elite QB but with his physical tools he could have for all intents and purposes put up elite numbers if he had a Randy Moss in the same way of a Culpepper

In fact with Vick's ability to get outside the pocket and with defenses forced to respect that ability, those bombs to Moss would have been even more uncontested than they were in Minnesota

If you can throw it up there Moss can go get it. Unfortunately Kerry Collins, Andrew Walter, and Aaron Brooks were not exactly that
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lionslicer wrote:
x0x wrote:
Just to throw some more wood on the fire.


Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN?


Actually it was done exclusively by NFL films.

Anyways he was #65, but what is surprising that he was the 3rd receiver behind Hudson and Rice.


3 receivers in the top 65 is absurd. all 3 should be top 40
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
lionslicer wrote:
x0x wrote:
Just to throw some more wood on the fire.


Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN?


Actually it was done exclusively by NFL films.

Anyways he was #65, but what is surprising that he was the 3rd receiver behind Hudson and Rice.


3 receivers in the top 65 is absurd. all 3 should be top 40


They got one thing right on that list.
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l3lind golfer


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the QB's Moss has played with in his career haven't amounted to squat, except Tom Brady. He played with Cunningham at the very end of his career. At his best, Moss is the greatest WR to ever play the game. Worse case scenario; he's the 2nd all-time behind Rice.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

l3lind golfer wrote:
All the QB's Moss has played with in his career haven't amounted to squat, except Tom Brady. He played with Cunningham at the very end of his career. At his best, Moss is the greatest WR to ever play the game. Worse case scenario; he's the 2nd all-time behind Rice.


It's amazing how many people thought Culpepper was a top 5 QB when he left Minnesota

It's too bad he got hurt for his sake, and because it leads people to make the excuse that his injury is why he was no longer elite.

He was NEVER elite. I know he played for the extended period of time without Moss in 2004 but what everyone forgets is the absolute HISTORIC pace he was on before Moss got hurt that year

Culpepper was on pace to break both the passing yardage and TD record that year. And given the points and yards that were left on the field that year despite how well he played without Moss, he could have easily had a chance to break both

Moss allowed Culpepper to just throw it up in double and triple coverage

I'll never forget the game he had against TO's 49ers when Moss had Gus Frerotte throwing him the ball. (That was of course the game of a TO meltdown yelling at Greg Knapp)

Really the only thing that could stop prime Moss was an offense that was too incompetent to throw the ball down the field (IE wasted years in Oakland)

And if he had a HOF caliber QB for 5-6 more years of his career, his numbers could be right up there with Jerry at least in the TD department


BUt even without the TDs he could still be the greatest even though he won't get the recognition. Because truth be told you dont have to have best stats to be the best player ever


No one considers Emmitt Smith the GOAT. Nor Brett Favre, etc
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