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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mossburg wrote: | | Quote: | | Look at the defenses that they faced. 0 were ranked in the top 10 in PPG. Goes back to your argument against Culpepper... |
I don't see how.
The Culpepper argument goes something like this.
Culpepper played 6 years with Moss and was damn near MVP level in most of them. But it's obvious that he didn't really need Moss, because look at this neat little 4 game stretch in that 6 years career. See? TEH PROOPHZZZ....but make sure you don't look at what happens after those 6 years, that is not teh relevance!!!! Dat 4 game stretch doe...
Collins at least played at a level he never played before for a while more than half a season. I don't see how that compares to the Cullpepper thing, regardless of what defenses they faced. Collins was never even a great QB, Culpepper was making most top 3 lists.
So either way, Randy Moss couldn't help Kerry and Daunte help read defenses better. I guess we can hold that against him. |
Yea, that's not what I said. When you're interested in addressing that, feel free to get back to me. Until then, continue on with the snarkyness.
And frankly, you know nothing of my views on Culpepper if you're trying to argue the last sentence.
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Mossburg
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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I don't understand how any of that relates to the Culpepper argument at all. So you're saying Collins lighting up non-top 10 defenses for that stretch somehow goes back to my argument against Culpepper struggling more often than not against good defenses and lighting up bad ones.... I do not understand how any of this is relevant when I said that Moss actually amplified Collins' production. I'm pretty sure Collins never had a stretch like that regardless of the quality of defenses he faced in a long career.
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Last edited by Mossburg on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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x0x
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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Location: Oh Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Just to throw some more wood on the fire.
Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN?
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steelcurtain29
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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How does Moss get a pass for playing with bad QB's? Rice's best season came with about 1/3 of it coming from someone who wasn't a HoF QB
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Mossburg
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| steelcurtain29 wrote: | | How does Moss get a pass for playing with bad QB's? Rice's best season came with about 1/3 of it coming from someone who wasn't a HoF QB |
I don't think there's any "pass", nor do I think Moss played with "bad" QBs. I think even the worst QBs Moss played with can at the very least be labeled as "competent". It's just the impact he had on those QBs and their production is staggering. I mean his 1st season with a truly elite QB, even when Moss was past his prime, he had one of the best seasons ever.
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mossburg wrote: | | I don't understand how any of that relates to the Culpepper argument at all. So you're saying Collins lighting up non-top 10 defenses for that stretch somehow goes back to my argument against Culpepper struggling more often than not against good defenses and lighting up bad ones.... I do not understand how any of this is relevant when I said that Moss actually amplified Collins' production. I'm pretty sure Collins never had a stretch like that regardless of the quality of defenses he faced in a long career. |
It's relevant because your argument against Culpepper was based on the quality of defenses...I was pointing out that the same was true of Collins.
Collins never had a stretch like that?
With Moss, that 8 game stretch(P.S. Moss didn't do much over the final 4 games of that stretch): 12 TDs 3 ints
8 game stretch in 2000 with Giants: 13 TDs 4 ints(Game 7 to 14)
The point of the matter wasn't ever dismissing Moss from Culpepper's success, it was how much credit he deserved. And frankly, the argument started with you claiming that 2005 was a better indicator of how he'd play in 2004 without Moss than 2004 without Moss was. Kind of ridiculous.
Not to say that he didn't "need" Moss that year. That was an incorrect comment but you were exaggerating your point as well.
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jrry32
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mossburg wrote: | | steelcurtain29 wrote: | | How does Moss get a pass for playing with bad QB's? Rice's best season came with about 1/3 of it coming from someone who wasn't a HoF QB |
I don't think there's any "pass", nor do I think Moss played with "bad" QBs. I think even the worst QBs Moss played with can at the very least be labeled as "competent". It's just the impact he had on those QBs and their production is staggering. I mean his 1st season with a truly elite QB, even when Moss was past his prime, he had one of the best seasons ever. |
And yet he had numerous years with truly elite passing game production from his QBs.
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Mossburg
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The point of the matter wasn't ever dismissing Moss from Culpepper's success, it was how much credit he deserved. And frankly, the argument started with you claiming that 2005 was a better indicator of how he'd play in 2004 without Moss than 2004 without Moss was. Kind of ridiculous. |
How the hell did you come to that conclusion? 
I never said, or even implied, or can even see how anyone could think I would be implying that. I was simply pointing out that saying that Culpepper had a good stretch without Moss against terrible defenses as proof that he didn't need Moss to be a great QB is ridiculous.
| Quote: | | And yet he had numerous years with truly elite passing game production from his QBs. |
That's called eternal greatness achieved by very few.
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lionslicer
Joined: 06 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| x0x wrote: | Just to throw some more wood on the fire.
Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN? |
Actually it was done exclusively by NFL films.
Anyways he was #65, but what is surprising that he was the 3rd receiver behind Hudson and Rice.
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jrry32
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mossburg wrote: | How the hell did you come to that conclusion?
I never said, or even implied, or can even see how anyone could think I would be implying that. I was simply pointing out that saying that Culpepper had a good stretch without Moss against terrible defenses as proof that he didn't need Moss to be a great QB is ridiculous. |
Which was never the argument that I set out to make.
| Quote: | | That's called eternal greatness achieved by very few. |
Not sure what you're getting at here.
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| sayheykid wrote: |
As a general rule Michael Vick and better QB play don't belong in the same conversation. At least not as a passer, and certainly not for his wide receivers. |
Vick has never been an elite QB but with his physical tools he could have for all intents and purposes put up elite numbers if he had a Randy Moss in the same way of a Culpepper
In fact with Vick's ability to get outside the pocket and with defenses forced to respect that ability, those bombs to Moss would have been even more uncontested than they were in Minnesota
If you can throw it up there Moss can go get it. Unfortunately Kerry Collins, Andrew Walter, and Aaron Brooks were not exactly that |
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NextBigThing
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| lionslicer wrote: | | x0x wrote: | Just to throw some more wood on the fire.
Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN? |
Actually it was done exclusively by NFL films.
Anyways he was #65, but what is surprising that he was the 3rd receiver behind Hudson and Rice. |
3 receivers in the top 65 is absurd. all 3 should be top 40
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J Pep 4 Step
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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Location: Greenvillain, NC
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| NextBigThing wrote: | | lionslicer wrote: | | x0x wrote: | Just to throw some more wood on the fire.
Where was Moss ranked in that Top 100 list done by NN? |
Actually it was done exclusively by NFL films.
Anyways he was #65, but what is surprising that he was the 3rd receiver behind Hudson and Rice. |
3 receivers in the top 65 is absurd. all 3 should be top 40 |
They got one thing right on that list.
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| jrry32 wrote: | | Faulk's argument style is reminiscent of Mark Sanchez's passing style. Inconsistent as hell and all over the place. I'm just waiting for him to run into iPwn's butt and fumble. |
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l3lind golfer
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:12 am Post subject: |
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All the QB's Moss has played with in his career haven't amounted to squat, except Tom Brady. He played with Cunningham at the very end of his career. At his best, Moss is the greatest WR to ever play the game. Worse case scenario; he's the 2nd all-time behind Rice.
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| l3lind golfer wrote: | | All the QB's Moss has played with in his career haven't amounted to squat, except Tom Brady. He played with Cunningham at the very end of his career. At his best, Moss is the greatest WR to ever play the game. Worse case scenario; he's the 2nd all-time behind Rice. |
It's amazing how many people thought Culpepper was a top 5 QB when he left Minnesota
It's too bad he got hurt for his sake, and because it leads people to make the excuse that his injury is why he was no longer elite.
He was NEVER elite. I know he played for the extended period of time without Moss in 2004 but what everyone forgets is the absolute HISTORIC pace he was on before Moss got hurt that year
Culpepper was on pace to break both the passing yardage and TD record that year. And given the points and yards that were left on the field that year despite how well he played without Moss, he could have easily had a chance to break both
Moss allowed Culpepper to just throw it up in double and triple coverage
I'll never forget the game he had against TO's 49ers when Moss had Gus Frerotte throwing him the ball. (That was of course the game of a TO meltdown yelling at Greg Knapp)
Really the only thing that could stop prime Moss was an offense that was too incompetent to throw the ball down the field (IE wasted years in Oakland)
And if he had a HOF caliber QB for 5-6 more years of his career, his numbers could be right up there with Jerry at least in the TD department
BUt even without the TDs he could still be the greatest even though he won't get the recognition. Because truth be told you dont have to have best stats to be the best player ever
No one considers Emmitt Smith the GOAT. Nor Brett Favre, etc |
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