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bucsfan333
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 22393
Location: Kempes on the sig
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 Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| SwiftTexan wrote: | Am I the only one who thinks 70% of the reason the Bucs run defense was "good" last year is because their pass defense was one of the worst I've ever seen? Why run when you can just pass the ball at will like you're playing catch in your backyard?
Miller is decent but I wouldn't expect him to be anything more than an average starter. |
We lead the league in yards per carry against us. So there's that...
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 36209
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| JaguarCrazy2832 wrote: | | 96BucsBallin wrote: | Like everyone else has said, very underrated run stopper. What makes this even more difficult for us Bucs fans is that he is the 3rd player out of our front 7 to leave us in a matter of weeks. So there goes our #1 run game and we haven't done anything in our horrible secondary except get another safety. Really hope they have a plan.....
Oh and if you have a speedy OLB(dont know anything about your LBs), get ready for them to have a great season. |
2 of which went to jacksonville  |
What?
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leadkills
Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| SwiftTexan wrote: | Am I the only one who thinks 70% of the reason the Bucs run defense was "good" last year is because their pass defense was one of the worst I've ever seen? Why run when you can just pass the ball at will like you're playing catch in your backyard?
Miller is decent but I wouldn't expect him to be anything more than an average starter. |
Look at when teams tried to run their ypc it was low. So to say its all pass defense is bad the whole reason its not. Remember week 1 vs Carolina where we gave up 10 total rushing yards |
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SwiftTexan
Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 2441
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| leadkills wrote: | | SwiftTexan wrote: | Am I the only one who thinks 70% of the reason the Bucs run defense was "good" last year is because their pass defense was one of the worst I've ever seen? Why run when you can just pass the ball at will like you're playing catch in your backyard?
Miller is decent but I wouldn't expect him to be anything more than an average starter. |
Look at when teams tried to run their ypc it was low. So to say its all pass defense is bad the whole reason its not. Remember week 1 vs Carolina where we gave up 10 total rushing yards |
And 300+ yards passing. I don't want to make this into a Bucs debate all I'm saying is that the pass defense made the run defense look good. Holding teams to a low YPC is great but it's not like teams had to run the ball to beat them when TB was giving up 300 yards a game and letting opposing QBs completed more then 65% of their passes. Roy Miller is average. You can't say that because their run defense was statiscally good last year that Roy Miller is going to make his new teams' run defense better. The Bucs faced the third least amount of rushes per game but were still 13th in the league for TDs allowed against the run. You can make the argument that the run defense was good so it forced teams to pass. I'm making the argument that the pass defense was so bad that teams didn't have to run so that inflated their total pass defense statistics and led people to believe they had a stout run defense.
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GO SEAHAWKS GO!
Not a Texans fan...just a nickname.
April 7th, 2013
| aceinthehouse wrote: | Don't sweat Seattle.
They're overrated & not making the Playoffs next season.
8-8 or 9-7 best for Seattle. (& No Playoffs) |
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 36209
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SwiftTexan wrote: | | leadkills wrote: | | SwiftTexan wrote: | Am I the only one who thinks 70% of the reason the Bucs run defense was "good" last year is because their pass defense was one of the worst I've ever seen? Why run when you can just pass the ball at will like you're playing catch in your backyard?
Miller is decent but I wouldn't expect him to be anything more than an average starter. |
Look at when teams tried to run their ypc it was low. So to say its all pass defense is bad the whole reason its not. Remember week 1 vs Carolina where we gave up 10 total rushing yards |
And 300+ yards passing. I don't want to make this into a Bucs debate all I'm saying is that the pass defense made the run defense look good. Holding teams to a low YPC is great but it's not like teams had to run the ball to beat them when TB was giving up 300 yards a game and letting opposing QBs completed more then 65% of their passes. Roy Miller is average. You can't say that because their run defense was statiscally good last year that Roy Miller is going to make his new teams' run defense better. The Bucs faced the third least amount of rushes per game but were still 13th in the league for TDs allowed against the run. You can make the argument that the run defense was good so it forced teams to pass. I'm making the argument that the pass defense was so bad that teams didn't have to run so that inflated their total pass defense statistics and led people to believe they had a stout run defense. |
Then how do you account for the low YPC?
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
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SwiftTexan
Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 2441
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | SwiftTexan wrote: | | leadkills wrote: | | SwiftTexan wrote: | Am I the only one who thinks 70% of the reason the Bucs run defense was "good" last year is because their pass defense was one of the worst I've ever seen? Why run when you can just pass the ball at will like you're playing catch in your backyard?
Miller is decent but I wouldn't expect him to be anything more than an average starter. |
Look at when teams tried to run their ypc it was low. So to say its all pass defense is bad the whole reason its not. Remember week 1 vs Carolina where we gave up 10 total rushing yards |
And 300+ yards passing. I don't want to make this into a Bucs debate all I'm saying is that the pass defense made the run defense look good. Holding teams to a low YPC is great but it's not like teams had to run the ball to beat them when TB was giving up 300 yards a game and letting opposing QBs completed more then 65% of their passes. Roy Miller is average. You can't say that because their run defense was statiscally good last year that Roy Miller is going to make his new teams' run defense better. The Bucs faced the third least amount of rushes per game but were still 13th in the league for TDs allowed against the run. You can make the argument that the run defense was good so it forced teams to pass. I'm making the argument that the pass defense was so bad that teams didn't have to run so that inflated their total pass defense statistics and led people to believe they had a stout run defense. |
Then how do you account for the low YPC? |
Because it changes how you game plan. If you need to pick up 5 yards and you know how easy it is to get at least 5 by passing the ball against a defense that is made up entirely of traffic cones and blocking dummies, you pass the ball. The Bucs didn't have to defend the run because they were too busy watching the ball sail over their heads for a completion and a first down. So with the reduction of carries and a change in the game plan, the run defense looks pretty good when the opposing team only rushes 15 times a game for 45 yards but they lost the game by 10 because the QB had 300 yards and 3 TDs. So if your QB is lighting up the scoreboard, why are you calling running plays? If the Bucs had a good secondary, their run defense would have been mediocre. Top 15 maybe but their run defense was good because their pass defense was bad, not because of the players and the talent level on their defense. What Head Coach with half a brain would even think about making up a game plan against the 2012 Bucs that doesn't focus on passing the ball downfield the majority of the game? It's why they had so few rushing attempts against them... As I said before - it's the chicken/egg argument. You can argue their premier rush defense forced teams to pass against them or you can argue their horrible pass defense inflated their rush defense. I'm taking the latter - you feel free to take the former if that's what you believe.
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GO SEAHAWKS GO!
Not a Texans fan...just a nickname.
April 7th, 2013
| aceinthehouse wrote: | Don't sweat Seattle.
They're overrated & not making the Playoffs next season.
8-8 or 9-7 best for Seattle. (& No Playoffs) |
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 36209
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| SwiftTexan wrote: | | Because it changes how you game plan. If you need to pick up 5 yards and you know how easy it is to get at least 5 by passing the ball against a defense that is made up entirely of traffic cones and blocking dummies, you pass the ball. The Bucs didn't have to defend the run because they were too busy watching the ball sail over their heads for a completion and a first down. So with the reduction of carries and a change in the game plan, the run defense looks pretty good when the opposing team only rushes 15 times a game for 45 yards but they lost the game by 10 because the QB had 300 yards and 3 TDs. So if your QB is lighting up the scoreboard, why are you calling running plays? If the Bucs had a good secondary, their run defense would have been mediocre. Top 15 maybe but their run defense was good because their pass defense was bad, not because of the players and the talent level on their defense. What Head Coach with half a brain would even think about making up a game plan against the 2012 Bucs that doesn't focus on passing the ball downfield the majority of the game? It's why they had so few rushing attempts against them... As I said before - it's the chicken/egg argument. You can argue their premier rush defense forced teams to pass against them or you can argue their horrible pass defense inflated their rush defense. I'm taking the latter - you feel free to take the former if that's what you believe. |
Okay... So what you're saying is that the Bucs were so bad aginat the pass that teams were passing all over them. So that means that the run was unexpected, which means that the Bucs shouldn't have bene playing the run. This then means that it would cause the safeties and LBs to pull off the LOS. And this mean that with how limited the number of runs were, that running the ball should catch the Bucs off guard, which would allow for larger chunks of yardage in the limited number of runs.
And I'm not taking the former or the latter. I'm suggesting that it can be possible that the pass defense sucked and the run defense was good. That's what the data suggests, if you're simply going to look at stats to try to come up with your decision of what they mean, which is all your argument is at this point.
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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SwiftTexan
Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 2441
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | SwiftTexan wrote: | | Because it changes how you game plan. If you need to pick up 5 yards and you know how easy it is to get at least 5 by passing the ball against a defense that is made up entirely of traffic cones and blocking dummies, you pass the ball. The Bucs didn't have to defend the run because they were too busy watching the ball sail over their heads for a completion and a first down. So with the reduction of carries and a change in the game plan, the run defense looks pretty good when the opposing team only rushes 15 times a game for 45 yards but they lost the game by 10 because the QB had 300 yards and 3 TDs. So if your QB is lighting up the scoreboard, why are you calling running plays? If the Bucs had a good secondary, their run defense would have been mediocre. Top 15 maybe but their run defense was good because their pass defense was bad, not because of the players and the talent level on their defense. What Head Coach with half a brain would even think about making up a game plan against the 2012 Bucs that doesn't focus on passing the ball downfield the majority of the game? It's why they had so few rushing attempts against them... As I said before - it's the chicken/egg argument. You can argue their premier rush defense forced teams to pass against them or you can argue their horrible pass defense inflated their rush defense. I'm taking the latter - you feel free to take the former if that's what you believe. |
Okay... So what you're saying is that the Bucs were so bad aginat the pass that teams were passing all over them. So that means that the run was unexpected, which means that the Bucs shouldn't have bene playing the run. This then means that it would cause the safeties and LBs to pull off the LOS. And this mean that with how limited the number of runs were, that running the ball should catch the Bucs off guard, which would allow for larger chunks of yardage in the limited number of runs.
And I'm not taking the former or the latter. I'm suggesting that it can be possible that the pass defense sucked and the run defense was good. That's what the data suggests, if you're simply going to look at stats to try to come up with your decision of what they mean, which is all your argument is at this point. |
You can't seriously try to tell me that the Bucs run defense was one of the league's best last year because of Roy Miller and the crew. The only times teams had to run was when it was 3rd and 1 or at the goal line so that's why the YPC was so low and the TDs were so high. How you letting in almost a TD a game when teams run at you only once a quarter? Where was their stout run defense then? They are an average run defense. If teams had to run at them to score points and progress the ball - they would have been a mediocre run defense.
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GO SEAHAWKS GO!
Not a Texans fan...just a nickname.
April 7th, 2013
| aceinthehouse wrote: | Don't sweat Seattle.
They're overrated & not making the Playoffs next season.
8-8 or 9-7 best for Seattle. (& No Playoffs) |
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 36209
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| SwiftTexan wrote: | | iPwn wrote: | | SwiftTexan wrote: | | Because it changes how you game plan. If you need to pick up 5 yards and you know how easy it is to get at least 5 by passing the ball against a defense that is made up entirely of traffic cones and blocking dummies, you pass the ball. The Bucs didn't have to defend the run because they were too busy watching the ball sail over their heads for a completion and a first down. So with the reduction of carries and a change in the game plan, the run defense looks pretty good when the opposing team only rushes 15 times a game for 45 yards but they lost the game by 10 because the QB had 300 yards and 3 TDs. So if your QB is lighting up the scoreboard, why are you calling running plays? If the Bucs had a good secondary, their run defense would have been mediocre. Top 15 maybe but their run defense was good because their pass defense was bad, not because of the players and the talent level on their defense. What Head Coach with half a brain would even think about making up a game plan against the 2012 Bucs that doesn't focus on passing the ball downfield the majority of the game? It's why they had so few rushing attempts against them... As I said before - it's the chicken/egg argument. You can argue their premier rush defense forced teams to pass against them or you can argue their horrible pass defense inflated their rush defense. I'm taking the latter - you feel free to take the former if that's what you believe. |
Okay... So what you're saying is that the Bucs were so bad aginat the pass that teams were passing all over them. So that means that the run was unexpected, which means that the Bucs shouldn't have bene playing the run. This then means that it would cause the safeties and LBs to pull off the LOS. And this mean that with how limited the number of runs were, that running the ball should catch the Bucs off guard, which would allow for larger chunks of yardage in the limited number of runs.
And I'm not taking the former or the latter. I'm suggesting that it can be possible that the pass defense sucked and the run defense was good. That's what the data suggests, if you're simply going to look at stats to try to come up with your decision of what they mean, which is all your argument is at this point. |
You can't seriously try to tell me that the Bucs run defense was one of the league's best last year because of Roy Miller and the crew. The only times teams had to run was when it was 3rd and 1 or at the goal line so that's why the YPC was so low and the TDs were so high. How you letting in almost a TD a game when teams run at you only once a quarter? Where was their stout run defense then? They are an average run defense. If teams had to run at them to score points and progress the ball - they would have been a mediocre run defense. |
Only once a quarter, huh?
And it's a good thing we have stats that take that into account. FO's DVOA takes into account all that sort of stuff. They still rank the Bucs 3rd in run defense.
EDIT: link
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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SwiftTexan
Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 2441
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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You believe what you want Pawn but I don't think Bucs fans have to worry. Their Run D will be just as "good" next year if they don't start getting some corners who can play ball.
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GO SEAHAWKS GO!
Not a Texans fan...just a nickname.
April 7th, 2013
| aceinthehouse wrote: | Don't sweat Seattle.
They're overrated & not making the Playoffs next season.
8-8 or 9-7 best for Seattle. (& No Playoffs) |
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iPwn
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 36209
Location: Stand United
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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And for all the fuss you're making about the lack of attempts they had against them, they were 3.6 attempts per game less than the NFL average. That's it. And yet they allowed 39.6 yards less than the league average. So unless you're going to sit here and say that they really would have allowed 11 yards per carry on three more attempts, you're clearly off base.
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| samgurl775 wrote: | | It's alright iPwn, you're my #1. |
| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | I AM TRYING TO BE PWNY! AND I AM NOT! AND THIS VEXES ME SORE!!! |
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JaguarCrazy2832
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 73945
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | JaguarCrazy2832 wrote: | | 96BucsBallin wrote: | Like everyone else has said, very underrated run stopper. What makes this even more difficult for us Bucs fans is that he is the 3rd player out of our front 7 to leave us in a matter of weeks. So there goes our #1 run game and we haven't done anything in our horrible secondary except get another safety. Really hope they have a plan.....
Oh and if you have a speedy OLB(dont know anything about your LBs), get ready for them to have a great season. |
2 of which went to jacksonville |
What? |
Didnt Geno Hayes come from TB?
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ttitansfan4life
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 18617
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Solid signing. Nothing special but should be a decent player.
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DaRealdeal
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 8657
Location: Jamison. on the sig
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| iPwn wrote: | | And for all the fuss you're making about the lack of attempts they had against them, they were 3.6 attempts per game less than the NFL average. That's it. And yet they allowed 39.6 yards less than the league average. So unless you're going to sit here and say that they really would have allowed 11 yards per carry on three more attempts, you're clearly off base. |
Yeah, you would really have to oversimplify things to attribute our run defense's performance to our porous pass defense.
Our defense forced the most negative plays in the league last year. 8 players ended the season with double digit stuffs...3 of them were Bucs (David, Foster and Bennett). Our run defense was legit.
Roy Miller's ability to occupy blockers and allow Lavonte David and Mason Foster to have clean rush lanes was a huge reason for our turnaround on run defense.
As soon as we started to use the tilted nose alignment, Miller took his game to another level. It really fits Miller's skill-set. I'm not sure if the Jaguars will use him the same way, but they should.
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TheOsprey
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 6551
Location: In a van, down by the river.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't know if Gus Bradley is gonna employ the same type of 4-3 Under defensive scheme that he did in Seattle, but if he does, Miller is a perfect fit for the 5 Technique role, that Red Bryant has been playing in Seattle. In fact, I actually think Miller would be a better fit there. If that is the case, this is a very nice signing that is going under the radar. |
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