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Cowboys LB Sean Lee gets 6-year, $51M contract extension
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
PS - Willis is the only LB in the league that is more impactful during the game.


Luke Kuechly would disagree...
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Lavelle Hawkins figures he's already cut, so YOLO.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirk Gently wrote:
BlaqOptic wrote:
DallasPride28 wrote:
You gotta be kidding me. There is no way this guy is still this under rated around the league. I mean he plays for the cowboys so how do people not know about him. He's well worth that money being such an important part of the defense and being so young as well. The guy is top 5 at his position.


Nobodies underrating him... However, he is getting more money than Navorro Bowman, Daryl Washington, Derrick Johnson and Brian Cushing who are all better than him...
without going into who's better, bowman and Washington both make more per year, Johnson is older (and more importantly has an older contract) and Cushing is still on his rookie contract.

So, yeah.


Hey now, dont let facts get in the way of silly opinions.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
PS - Willis is the only LB in the league that is more impactful during the game.


Luke Kuechly would disagree...


He had a great rookie season, but S Lee is more dynamic when it comes to coverage and creating turnovers. He is also a huge leader on the team. Im sure Luke will be too, in time.
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
TheVillain112 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
PS - Willis is the only LB in the league that is more impactful during the game.


Luke Kuechly would disagree...


He had a great rookie season, but S Lee is more dynamic when it comes to coverage and creating turnovers. He is also a huge leader on the team. Im sure Luke will be too, in time.


In terms of 'impact during the game', I'd say Kuechly definitely deserves to be in the discussion. The man had 164 tackles, 8 passes defensed, a sack and 2 INTs as a rookie. Very impressive. Which no offense because I'm a big Sean Lee fan is better than any season Lee has had in terms of impact during games...
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Lavelle Hawkins figures he's already cut, so YOLO.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
The man had 164 tackles, 8 passes defensed, a sack and 2 INTs as a rookie. Very impressive. Which no offense because I'm a big Sean Lee fan is better than any season Lee has had in terms of impact during games...


I agree - very impressive. And Maybe Luke should be put up there. A couple notes though - I think total tackles are highly inflated on certain teams. Typically those numbers are tracked in house. His solo tackles were closer to the 100 range. To put that in comparison, Lee in his 15 game campaign had 71 tackles, 6 turnovers, 7 pass break ups in 15 games... and he did that while playing like this for 6 (?) games:


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matt79511


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Individual tackles are misleading (for MLBs in particular) because it doesn't account for what the tackle accomplished. Did the opposing team gain 0-2 yards? 4-6? 8-10? Did the tackler show great instincts to meet the RB in the hole or did he drag him down after a significant gain?

PFF gets a lot of well deserved hate, but I appreciate their prioritization of "stops" over tackles.
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:

PS - Willis is the only LB in the league that is more impactful during the game. A lot of the other LBs you named have more durability, which means they have contributed more to their teams. But make no mistake about it - if S Lee can stay healthy he is clearly one of the best LBs in the game,


Man it's amazing the Cowboys don't win the Super Bowl since they have the best QB, and the best pass rusher and the best linebacker... Rolling Eyes

And Timmons is making 8.3 Mill per year and I just dont think Lee is a player of that caliber. A tier below.
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JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Yes, Victor Cruz is a bigger asset to a QB than Antonio Brown is. Id be hard-pressed to find many people that would take the latter.


JerseysFinest27 wrote:
10. Antonio Brown


Cruz wasnt even an HM


Last edited by BlaqOptic on Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt79511 wrote:
Individual tackles are misleading (for MLBs in particular) because it doesn't account for what the tackle accomplished. Did the opposing team gain 0-2 yards? 4-6? 8-10? Did the tackler show great instincts to meet the RB in the hole or did he drag him down after a significant gain?

PFF gets a lot of well deserved hate, but I appreciate their prioritization of "stops" over tackles.


That's not a PFF stat. It's a Football Outsiders one...

And even then Sean Lee comes up short of the truly elite guys in his best season....

Sean Lee in his 15 game season had 65 Stops and 23 Defeats...
Timmons has beaten that twice since 2010, Willis 3 times, Bowman twice, Washington once(and near it another), Cushing once, and Johnson 3 times...

Apparantely I was wrong about Lee's contract based on the raw number. But I'll be danged if a Cowboys fan(not you) is going to sit here and say he's the 2nd most impactful/important/game changing ILB/MLB in the NFL behind Willis. That's just not true.
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JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Yes, Victor Cruz is a bigger asset to a QB than Antonio Brown is. Id be hard-pressed to find many people that would take the latter.


JerseysFinest27 wrote:
10. Antonio Brown


Cruz wasnt even an HM
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaqOptic wrote:
matt79511 wrote:
Individual tackles are misleading (for MLBs in particular) because it doesn't account for what the tackle accomplished. Did the opposing team gain 0-2 yards? 4-6? 8-10? Did the tackler show great instincts to meet the RB in the hole or did he drag him down after a significant gain?

PFF gets a lot of well deserved hate, but I appreciate their prioritization of "stops" over tackles.


That's not a PFF stat. It's a Football Outsiders one...

And even then Sean Lee comes up short of the truly elite guys in his best season....

Sean Lee in his 15 game season had 65 Stops and 23 Defeats...
Timmons has beaten that twice since 2010, Willis 3 times, Bowman twice, Washington once(and near it another), Cushing once, and Johnson 3 times...

Apparantely I was wrong about Lee's contract based on the raw number. But I'll be danged if a Cowboys fan(not you) is going to sit here and say he's the 2nd most impactful/important/game changing ILB/MLB in the NFL behind Willis. That's just not true.


Well...I never thought I would see the day. But exactly, people overreact to initial numbers without doing the diligence to see the real numbers.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaqOptic wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:

PS - Willis is the only LB in the league that is more impactful during the game. A lot of the other LBs you named have more durability, which means they have contributed more to their teams. But make no mistake about it - if S Lee can stay healthy he is clearly one of the best LBs in the game,


Man it's amazing the Cowboys don't win the Super Bowl since they have the best QB, and the best pass rusher and the best linebacker... Rolling Eyes

^^^^^^^^^^^^No one said they had the best QB. We have a top 10 ILB, Top 10 QB and the #1 pass rusher. We also have proven to be one of the least durable teams in the NFL. Its no shock you cant compete in the playoffs when your best players cant ever stay healthy.

And Timmons is making 8.3 Mill per year and I just dont think Lee is a player of that caliber. A tier below.

I thought you said he was 5 for 61? How is that 8.3?


BlaqOptic wrote:
But I'll be danged if a Cowboys fan(not you) is going to sit here and say he's the 2nd most impactful/important/game changing ILB/MLB in the NFL behind Willis. That's just not true.


Either you are not reading what I am saying or you just prefer hyperbole.

What I said:
Sentence 1 -
Willis is the only LB in the league that is more impactful during the game.

Sentence 2 -
A lot of the other LBs you named have more durability, which means they have contributed more to their teams.

Sentence 3 -
But make no mistake about it - if S Lee can stay healthy he is clearly one of the best LBs in the game


Read the bold and focus on the underlined. I never said their arent other guys who are *JUST* as impactful. I said there is only one that is *MORE* impactful. I also said there are other LBs who contribute more due to durability and that he is one of the best, not the best. IF you comprehend what I am saying, its simply that Lee plays at an elite level when healthy.

----------------------------------------------

Put this another way, I would say that Adrian Peterson is the only RB that has more impact than Arian Foster. Thats not to say that MJD, Redskin RB, Eagles RB, Ray Rice, etc are not on Fosters level. Its just that there is only one guy that is legit better than Foster.
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canadaluvsdalla


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt trying to convince people who skim your arguments have no point.

Just let Sean Lee do the talking on the field like he always does. This year fully healthy.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirk Gently wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
BlaqOptic wrote:


I'd take Lawrence Timmons 10 times out of 10 over Sean Lee and Timmons got a 5 year for 61 Million deal with less guaranteed... So the Cowboys did bad business.


Only contracts rarely work out that way. Thankfully the rookie caps has done a lot to curb ridiculous contracts but even if you are the very best at your position, chances are a top 10 player (who, I think you would agree Lee is when healthy) will get a contract the next cycle that exceeds that amount of the best player. It's weird. But it happens.

The Cowboys pay very little Guaranteed as their insurance. Hopefully they will have to pay out even more because that means Lee stays healthy and that translates to more wins for Dallas.


Not to mention that 5/61 is WAY more than Lee will make at best. Over a 3rd of Lee's guaranteed money is next year's salary, so it's not like Lee is hard to cut. He's a mere $1.5m in dead money in 2015 and is a net positive cut in 2016. This is not a hamstringing contract. Unless Lee has his career ended in the next two years.


How do you figure that he's $1.5M in dead money in 2015?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/sean-lee/

Per that, his 2015 salary is $2.5M, but he'd have $6M in signing bonus amortizations remaining. 2016 would be $3M in salary, with $4M left in amortized monies, so still a net negative (unless treated as a June cut).

It also begs a question: if a third of Lee's guarantees are in his 2014 salary, why would the Cowboys want to renegotiate it again next year (as Matts4313 suggested)? Wouldn't that push more into future years?
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CAS22


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very happy about this deal. This will be the most recent parameter for the Texans to base Cushing's inevitable new deal and I think it'll be good value for him.
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope this doesn't hurt our negotiations for Butler who is also a very very valuable young ILB.
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Dirk Gently


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote:
He's a mere $1.5m in dead money in 2015 and is a net positive cut in 2016. This is not a hamstringing contract. Unless Lee has his career ended in the next two years.


How do you figure that he's $1.5M in dead money in 2015?

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/sean-lee/

Per that, his 2015 salary is $2.5M, but he'd have $6M in signing bonus amortizations remaining. 2016 would be $3M in salary, with $4M left in amortized monies, so still a net negative (unless treated as a June cut).

It also begs a question: if a third of Lee's guarantees are in his 2014 salary, why would the Cowboys want to renegotiate it again next year (as Matts4313 suggested)? Wouldn't that push more into future years?


Dead money is the wrong term. He costs $1.5m to cut in 2015, he saves $1m in 2016

http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Sean%20Lee&Position=ILB&Team=Cowboys

I disagree with Matts that Lee will be restructured next year. The restructures next year are Romo (built into the contract), and Ware (if necessary).

OTC also has detailed discussion of the contract, and how it is a win-win here: http://overthecap.com/a-thorough-look-at-sean-lees-contract/
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