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Jaguars trade OT Eugene Monroe to Baltimore
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
who cares if we paid part of his salary this year, its off the books next year. It still stands if Baltimore cant resign him, it was a waste for him. Either way we got something for him when we wouldnt get anything. However if Baltimore can retain him, it is a great deal for them


The Ravens actually do because if the Jaguars hadn't paid/redid his deal for this season they would have had to do some salary restructuring elsewhere.

Indeed. Which in turn means this becomes that much better for us in value. As opposed to having to release a depth option OL and a few veterans to make room for Monroe's deal... we just needed to release one guy to free up Monroe for the roster. Which makes this deal all the more of a steal for us.

This also means that your team loses further value in this deal. I'm sure you have plenty of money to work with, but still, being able to roll over an extra couple million dollars to help sign some free agents easily makes this a better deal for your side. That's a quality depth player or a standout special teamer... or perhaps it helps you afford one more big name FA option. $2m isn't just a small deal, it's a resource.

Biting much of his contract doesn't really "hurt you" perse, but it also doesn't serve to "help you" as much as one might have speculated this deal would when seeing the initial breakdowns.
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canucks9314


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: If he walks from the Ravens and goes to another team will the Ravens get a comp pick even though he was acquired via mid-season trade?
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

canucks9314 wrote:
Question: If he walks from the Ravens and goes to another team will the Ravens get a comp pick even though he was acquired via mid-season trade?

Yes... or rather, it stands to reason that they should.

Because the compensatory system is to help benefit teams that lose considerable value without adding that value back. Monroe was just valued at a 4th and 5th round pick via this trade. If he walks that's lost value. And we have his rights as a player, so it stands to reason that the compensation process shouldn't be effected.

Which only makes this deal all the more fail safed. If we can't resign him, we get a compensatory 3rd rounder (4th at worse) in all likelihood. As I'm sure we would be looking to match all deals within reason. That Monroe would need to receive a rather healthy contract for us to not look to sign him... and thus such a contract would likely be high enough to potentially reach that 3rd round comp plateau.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeyfarley wrote:

No, it's not the right move. Giving up more than you are getting in return is never the right move.


Except you're getting more in return than you would have had you kept him.

That's the point.

4th & 5th in 2014 >>>>>>>>>>> potentially 6th round comp in 2015.

It's what good rebuilding teams do. You guys are in bad shape -- I don't know if you've realized this. It's going to take a few years in order to get yourselves back upright. So, you're acquiring picks in order to expedite that process. And, like has been said, a 4th & 5th helps that process a whole heck of a lot more than a 6th or worse.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
1. A combination of the two. Its a fact that prior to the draft Monroe hadn't been contacted about a contract extension. Words right from his mouth in the linked article:
Monroe not broached for extension wrote:
Monroe said general manager Dave Caldwell hasnít approached him or his agent about an extension and itís unlikely that will happen during the season.
This article was written in April, before the draft, just a short while after Caldwell had taken over. Over the summer, there were several reports on Twitter from Jaguars beat writers of the two sides talking about a contract extension. Nothing concrete insofar as actual discussions had went, because the team is waiting on extending all their guys due to a number of factors, but they had touched base on the idea.

Quote:
2. In terms of shopping him pre-draft, that was a mistake. I meant to say "after" but wrote "before"... though it honestly wouldn't surprise me if they had been shopping him before hand as well. I mean, it's conjecture, but the plan to draft Joeckel couldn't have been sudden. I'm sure he was #1 or #2 on their big board throughout the process. So knowing that, it would stand to reason that they were either shopping the pick or shopping Monroe. So there's a good enough chance that they might have indeed been shopping Monroe.
There's only a good enough chance that they were shopping him if you think that they don't believe their analytics department. This year, the Jaguars put together an analytics department to look into advanced metrics for players. After drafting Joeckel, the head of the department, Tony Khan, went on Twitter and released a significant amount of data that they had, which he said led to the pick. In this data, it showed that Right Tackles give up a huge percentage more sacks and pressure than Left Tackles. He released data that showed the success rate of QBs if they get 2.6 seconds or more in the pocket, as opposed to 2.5 or less, among other thing, that included a (I believe), 15% higher completion percentage. There was significantly more data he released, all which together showed that having bookend Tackles like Monroe and Joeckel should have been was highly valuable and the reason for the Jaguars taking him. Now the only reason they would have been actively shopping Monroe is if you believe that the Jaguars put together an analytics program, gathers all this data, and then released it with the specific intentions of lying to the fan base.

Quote:
But we do know for a fact that the Jags were actively shipping Monroe for quite awhile. With reports that "many teams" had inquired into that situation and John Harbaugh's admission that they had been in trade discussions with the Jaguars for "quite some time" we can assume that these talks were going on for at least a few weeks and perhaps even during the offseason- depending on the definition of "quite some time".
Which goes back to those preliminary talks over the summer, and they likely continued. Did he, as reports have come out, show displeasure with the things he's dealt with the past few years? Tony Boseli, who is in contact with all our o-linemen on a routine basis, spoke about how the last few years had soured people. Going through Del Rio's last season, where he quit on all these guys, tossed some people under the bus, watching as an owner sold the team, watching the disaster of Mularkey and Gene Smith's last year, where again they were thrown under the bus. He spoke about how he knew all of that had jaded some of the vets into not wanting to be here anymore. Was Monroe one of those guys? It seems likely, doesn't it?

Quote:
3. Of course, Monroe would be shocked by this deal. Everyone was shocked. But I doubt he was shocked that he WAS traded vs that he was traded NOW. Trades like this simply rarely happen in the middle of the season (though apparently the Steelers just did the same thing and now the Giants are equally looking to acquire a big time starter, in Beason, mid-season as well). So I'm sure Monroe didn't expect this trade at this point in time.
If he, as you claimed, was soured on resigning because they were shopping him, shouldn't that mean that it was still in the back of his mind? Shouldn't he have known

Quote:
But he's not blind. The organization selects a player playing his position at the top of the draft, when has that ever worked out well for the current starting player?
When the player is meant to play the other side as the Jaguars made it clear had been their intention?

Often it's writing on the wall. And Monroe has an agent, part of that is a relationship where his agent is going to ask questions and find out whether or not his client is on the trade block and being shopped. Perhaps in some cases an agent might even do some behind the scenes work to specifically activate interest from teams his candidate is interested in playing for. Not saying that happened here, just that it's a possibility.[/quote] You mean tampering? Unless the agent is told that he is allowed to do so, that's directly against the CBA. And in that case, Monroe would be well aware that he was still being shopped, and none of this would have been a surprise at all.

Quote:
But that aside, if multiple teams were in on the shopping, it stands to reason that Monroe's agent knew, and by extension Monroe also knew. Had this deal happened 4-5 weeks ago, I'm sure Monroe isn't as taken aback as he was when he got this news just a few days ago. You have to figure that much of this surprise, just like it is for us as fans, has to do with the timing of it all.
If he knew, don't you think he would have made sure to have his agent check in and see what was going on, especially after the T-Rich trade made it clear that there could be moves during the year?

Quote:
4. But to re-clarify my point, so that it does not get lost. You're acting as though the Jags actions did not lead to Monroe losing trust in the organization. That the Jags were just sort of reactionary with this trade. As if Monroe was the likely veteran that spoke out against the team (which is conjecture, but he very well could have)... and that, that is what led to the Jags to actively seek a trade for Monroe and move on.
Well first off, it's much less conjecture than what's going on on the other side to think that the one guy, of 5 possible, who ended up traded just happened to be the one who was speaking out. I also made it clear that I didn't think that was the only thing, that it was a combination of factors including that, his lack of fit in the scheme, and his attitude towards being resigned.

Quote:
Furthermore they hadn't been actively looking to extend his contract according to the latest information I could find on that front.
Again, before the draft. Would you tell a player your draft plans before the draft and risk your information getting out there, possibly leading to a team jumping you (KC actually was shopping their pick) to take the guy you're most interested in?
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF Monroe walks in the offseason, I'd say he's a lock for a 4th round comp pick in 2015. No more, no less.
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DontTazeMeBro


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the very least Id think we'd tag Monroe. No way we are letting him walk.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you get compensation picks for players you traded for mid-season...but I don't know. The compensation thing is so secret for some reason Laughing
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
I don't think you get compensation picks for players you traded for mid-season...but I don't know. The compensation thing is so secret for some reason Laughing


Even though the Ravens traded for Monroe if he signs elsewhere in free agency he's still looked at as a player that Baltimore lost. I'm not sure if the playing time part of the formula counts the snaps he played for Jacksonville but probably not so that would lower his compensation value for the Ravens. Unless monroe is looking for a really big deal I highly doubt Ozzie doesn't re-sign him though. The offensive line is in too bad a state and Monroe is too good a fit in Castillo's blocking scheme not to keep around.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DontTazeMeBro wrote:
At the very least Id think we'd tag Monroe. No way we are letting him walk.
What's the plan to find that kind of cap room?
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simonwayne


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
At the very least Id think we'd tag Monroe. No way we are letting him walk.
What's the plan to find that kind of cap room?


Cut Joe Flacco. Should free up about 90% of their cap room lol
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DontTazeMeBro


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
At the very least Id think we'd tag Monroe. No way we are letting him walk.
What's the plan to find that kind of cap room?


Cut McKinnie and McClain. Extend Suggs, get his 14 cap number down. And I don't think we have a major issue with the cap.
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DontTazeMeBro


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simonwayne wrote:
Sciz wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
At the very least Id think we'd tag Monroe. No way we are letting him walk.
What's the plan to find that kind of cap room?


Cut Joe Flacco. Should free up about 90% of their cap room lol


Closer to 12%. A little less than Ngata and a little more than Suggs. And I think we'd lose 38 million in cap space.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Sciz wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
At the very least Id think we'd tag Monroe. No way we are letting him walk.
What's the plan to find that kind of cap room?


Cut McKinnie and McClain. Extend Suggs, get his 14 cap number down. And I don't think we have a major issue with the cap.
Assuming the cap doesn't go up next season (and it'd be minor if it does at all), the Ravens are looking at about $7M in cap room to start next offseason. Cutting McKinnie saves $3M, cutting McClain saves $3.2. A four-year extension for Suggs with maximum year 1 cap saving saves about $5.5M. That adds up to $18.7M in cap room. Taking out the roughly $9.8M tag leaves $8.9M for 14 players. If we assume the Ravens have the 32rd pick of the first round (I'm going to assume a trade back, I know you'll do otherwise), that's a $1.2M cap hit. That leaves $7.7M for 13 players, or an average of under $600k available for each of those 13 players, all without taking things like injured reserve and emergency cap room into account. So basically, if those are the only three cap moves they make, they're signing 13 guys for the minimum salary just to fill the roster.

Thanks, Joe Flacco.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Sciz wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
At the very least Id think we'd tag Monroe. No way we are letting him walk.
What's the plan to find that kind of cap room?


Cut McKinnie and McClain. Extend Suggs, get his 14 cap number down. And I don't think we have a major issue with the cap.
Assuming the cap doesn't go up next season (and it'd be minor if it does at all), the Ravens are looking at about $7M in cap room to start next offseason. Cutting McKinnie saves $3M, cutting McClain saves $3.2. A four-year extension for Suggs with maximum year 1 cap saving saves about $5.5M. That adds up to $18.7M in cap room. Taking out the roughly $9.8M tag leaves $8.9M for 14 players. If we assume the Ravens have the 32rd pick of the first round (I'm going to assume a trade back, I know you'll do otherwise), that's a $1.2M cap hit. That leaves $7.7M for 13 players, or an average of under $600k available for each of those 13 players, all without taking things like injured reserve and emergency cap room into account. So basically, if those are the only three cap moves they make, they're signing 13 guys for the minimum salary just to fill the roster.

Thanks, Joe Flacco.


First, I strongly doubt we'll have to tag him. Before trading for a guy like that, you have to assume Ozzie discussed his long-term future. Monroe has already said he'd like to get a long-term deal done, we're a winning organization with a need at his position, and his wife is from 20 minutes outside of Baltimore. It's basically a matter of "when", not "if".

As to the cap situation, we'd also likely cut Huff to save roughly $3m, Spears for $1.25m, Koch for $4.7m (Exclamation) and could always extend Ngata's contract another year to free up another $1.25m. So, let's just say we don't extend Ngata -- that takes us from $7.7m to $16.5m for now needing 16 players, or on average $1m per player, which is absolutely plenty of money.
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