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NFL to consider changing playoff seeding format
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 24860
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
91jmay wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
91jmay wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:

Because there's no point in pretending that the home field advantage is bigger than a guaranteed playoff spot. If you can't have home field, why bother even giving a guaranteed playoff spot, why bother having 6 out of 16 games against your division, why bother having divisions?


What? The point of divisions is the winner gets a playoff spot, and thats where it should end. How isn't a guaranteed playoff spot 'bigger' than home field advantage. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.

bungleodeon wrote:

If it is ridiculous for a team to get home field advantage in the first round of the playoffs, why isn't it ridiculous that the team even gets a guaranteed playoff spot?


Try reading, I never said the bold. I said its ridiculous for a team that played average to below average all season to get one. Teams with the best records, deserve the greater advantage in the playoffs. Simple.
You said exactly that.

And to the bold, considering you can't read what you wrote yourself, I won't bother expecting you to figure out what others are saying.


Yeah, unless you quote me you are clearly just lying. I said its ridiculous for a team to get a home field advantage JUST for winning the division. At NO point did I say division winners shouldn't be in the playoffs or that divisions shouldn't exist.

You've clearly just run out of points and are running away from debate.
You haven't even made a point yet.

I'll make it simple, I said if this is the way the NFL wants to go, why bother keeping divisions? You instead avoided that and said it was ridiculous to have an inferior record divsion winner hosting a better record team in the wild card round.

So just answer the basic question, how can you claim it is fair for a team with an inferior record to make the playoffs over a team with a superior record, yet then in the same breath claim it is unfair for a team with an inferior record to host a playoff game against a team with a superior record? And why bother quoting me in the first place when you didn't want to acknowledge the original point I made? where I said it would be fine for this type of system to be put in place if there were no divisions.

Like I've already said, the use of the idea of "fairness" in this thread is
laughable.

Wait a second ago you were accusing me of not knowing what I only wrote and now I haven't made a point yet. Laughing Laughing Someone got caught lying.

You accused me of saying something, then backed off hard when you realised you were wrong. Sad.

I haven't really been claiming fairness, just that with the division system in place (which makes obvious sense for geographic, schedule and rivalry reasons) having the winners in makes sense or else the divisions are pointless.

I have no idea how anyone who can think about the proposed change for more than 5 seconds can think this makes the divisions irrelevant.

Laughing at not having made a point. As you clearly lack any basic ability to read and understand what is being said here is what I'd like to see (yet again):

The 6 teams from each conference are decided as they are now, but the seeding is done purely on W-L. Simple.
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Allen said he would play the hot hand, in what world is McFadden's hand hot?

He touched Dennis Allen's seat before the game.
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spilltray


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
The 6 teams from each conference are decided as they are now, but the seeding is done purely on W-L. Simple.


The point for me is that winning your division should be more important and, generally more difficult. That's why I prefer the current seeding of Div 1-4 then the wild cards as opposed to just seeding by record outright. Record in one division isn't a very good comparison to record in a different division.
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 24860
Location: Wonderland
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
91jmay wrote:
The 6 teams from each conference are decided as they are now, but the seeding is done purely on W-L. Simple.


The point for me is that winning your division should be more important and, generally more difficult. That's why I prefer the current seeding of Div 1-4 then the wild cards as opposed to just seeding by record outright. Record in one division isn't a very good comparison to record in a different division.

But if winning your division is more difficult (I.E you have to win lots of games to do it) then you will get a good seed anyway and if winning your division wasn't that difficult then you don't.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
smokey1212 wrote:

Allen said he would play the hot hand, in what world is McFadden's hand hot?

He touched Dennis Allen's seat before the game.
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spilltray


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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Location: Green Bay, WI
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
spilltray wrote:
91jmay wrote:
The 6 teams from each conference are decided as they are now, but the seeding is done purely on W-L. Simple.


The point for me is that winning your division should be more important and, generally more difficult. That's why I prefer the current seeding of Div 1-4 then the wild cards as opposed to just seeding by record outright. Record in one division isn't a very good comparison to record in a different division.

But if winning your division is more difficult (I.E you have to win lots of games to do it) then you will get a good seed anyway and if winning your division wasn't that difficult then you don't.


That's where the fallacy is. Just because it's more difficult, that doesn't mean you need a better record. The difficulty of schedules are only comparable within the same division.

Say for instance you have strong division A, where every team is decent. They beat up on each other and all go 3-3. They draw strong division B and C. They do reasonably well in those 8 games, say the top 2 teams go 5-3. The top team in the division wins at 9-7

Now you have Division D. They have 2 really good teams and 2 bad ones. The 2 good teams both go 5-1 in the division. They draw 8 games against 2 week divisions that have one good team and 3 really bad ones.
They go 7-1 in those 8 games. The top team wins the division at 13-3 and the 2nd team is 12-4.

The team that won division A had a MUCH harder time than D. They played a completely different set of teams. The team that came out of A had a much harder road, and came through on top, albeit with a worse record.

The schedules and records are only a REALLY good barometer in the division.
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, thats a good argument and a valid reason to keep it the same.

Certainly better than majority of thread's 'well if your good enough' regurgitated crap.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
smokey1212 wrote:

Allen said he would play the hot hand, in what world is McFadden's hand hot?

He touched Dennis Allen's seat before the game.
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BladeKor


Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 906
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you win your division, despite going 7-9, you should still make the playoffs. Division winners always and should always have a place in playoffs.
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Pugger


Joined: 01 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Buck wrote:
AMG1713 wrote:
I'm on the fence with this. On one hand, I can see where people are coming from when they say a home playoff game is a reward for winning your division, but isn't the reward really the automatic playoff berth? The Packers won their division with an 8-7-1 record, which puts them in over a 10-6 Cardinal team. Isn't that already a reward? Why should they get a home playoff game, too?

To be fair, the Packers are a better team than their record indicates this year. They were missing Aaron Rodgers for 6 weeks or so.


I didn't want to mention my team in my earlier post for fear of being called a homer but had Rodgers not missed 8 games (he missed 7 weeks but only played one series against Chicago on MNF before he got hurt) we would have more than likely won at least 10/11 games. We were 5-2 before that Bears game. Confused
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eagles101


Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 9103
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
91jmay wrote:
spilltray wrote:
91jmay wrote:
The 6 teams from each conference are decided as they are now, but the seeding is done purely on W-L. Simple.


The point for me is that winning your division should be more important and, generally more difficult. That's why I prefer the current seeding of Div 1-4 then the wild cards as opposed to just seeding by record outright. Record in one division isn't a very good comparison to record in a different division.

But if winning your division is more difficult (I.E you have to win lots of games to do it) then you will get a good seed anyway and if winning your division wasn't that difficult then you don't.


That's where the fallacy is. Just because it's more difficult, that doesn't mean you need a better record. The difficulty of schedules are only comparable within the same division.

Say for instance you have strong division A, where every team is decent. They beat up on each other and all go 3-3. They draw strong division B and C. They do reasonably well in those 8 games, say the top 2 teams go 5-3. The top team in the division wins at 9-7

Now you have Division D. They have 2 really good teams and 2 bad ones. The 2 good teams both go 5-1 in the division. They draw 8 games against 2 week divisions that have one good team and 3 really bad ones.
They go 7-1 in those 8 games. The top team wins the division at 13-3 and the 2nd team is 12-4.

The team that won division A had a MUCH harder time than D. They played a completely different set of teams. The team that came out of A had a much harder road, and came through on top, albeit with a worse record.

The schedules and records are only a REALLY good barometer in the division.


But you can switch that to the siutaion were a team is in a weak division weak schedule and barely wins because they are best bad team in in. The other team is a strong division strong schedule and barely loses the number one spot.
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vikingsvikings wrote:

I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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spilltray


Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagles101 wrote:
But you can switch that to the siutaion were a team is in a weak division weak schedule and barely wins because they are best bad team in in. The other team is a strong division strong schedule and barely loses the number one spot.


Yes you can, which goes back to "It's harder to win your division and you are lucky it's not JUST division winners" argument. If the WC team is that much better, they should be able to go into an "inferior" division champion's house and win. It gives a weight and value appropriate to division play, since only schedules and records within it's own division is a good measure against each other. There is too much variation in schedules between the divisions. The division race is the primary race. Therefore they get seeded 1-4. Then, you get the 2 wild card teams. The difference in records between the division isn't a great barometer of the teams because they played at most 4 of 16 games against the same teams.

I think the NFL regular season and playoff format is as fair, balanced, and exciting a system as it can possibly be. I don't think any change at all in seeding, number of teams, structure, or anything else can do anything but make it worse.
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bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 9364
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
91jmay wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
91jmay wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:

Because there's no point in pretending that the home field advantage is bigger than a guaranteed playoff spot. If you can't have home field, why bother even giving a guaranteed playoff spot, why bother having 6 out of 16 games against your division, why bother having divisions?


What? The point of divisions is the winner gets a playoff spot, and thats where it should end. How isn't a guaranteed playoff spot 'bigger' than home field advantage. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read.

bungleodeon wrote:

If it is ridiculous for a team to get home field advantage in the first round of the playoffs, why isn't it ridiculous that the team even gets a guaranteed playoff spot?


Try reading, I never said the bold. I said its ridiculous for a team that played average to below average all season to get one. Teams with the best records, deserve the greater advantage in the playoffs. Simple.
You said exactly that.

And to the bold, considering you can't read what you wrote yourself, I won't bother expecting you to figure out what others are saying.


Yeah, unless you quote me you are clearly just lying. I said its ridiculous for a team to get a home field advantage JUST for winning the division. At NO point did I say division winners shouldn't be in the playoffs or that divisions shouldn't exist.

You've clearly just run out of points and are running away from debate.
You haven't even made a point yet.

I'll make it simple, I said if this is the way the NFL wants to go, why bother keeping divisions? You instead avoided that and said it was ridiculous to have an inferior record divsion winner hosting a better record team in the wild card round.

So just answer the basic question, how can you claim it is fair for a team with an inferior record to make the playoffs over a team with a superior record, yet then in the same breath claim it is unfair for a team with an inferior record to host a playoff game against a team with a superior record? And why bother quoting me in the first place when you didn't want to acknowledge the original point I made? where I said it would be fine for this type of system to be put in place if there were no divisions.

Like I've already said, the use of the idea of "fairness" in this thread is
laughable.

Wait a second ago you were accusing me of not knowing what I only wrote and now I haven't made a point yet. Laughing Laughing Someone got caught lying.

You accused me of saying something, then backed off hard when you realised you were wrong. Sad.

I haven't really been claiming fairness, just that with the division system in place (which makes obvious sense for geographic, schedule and rivalry reasons) having the winners in makes sense or else the divisions are pointless.

I have no idea how anyone who can think about the proposed change for more than 5 seconds can think this makes the divisions irrelevant.

Laughing at not having made a point. As you clearly lack any basic ability to read and understand what is being said here is what I'd like to see (yet again):

The 6 teams from each conference are decided as they are now, but the seeding is done purely on W-L. Simple.
So 3 paragraphs and 0 points again? And still failing to read. This is a shocking display of banter. The last 2 aren't points, they are just your opinions backed up by nothing.

I certainly didn't back off the point of your inability to read or comprehend, you just continue to prove that point over and over. Until you go back and actually figure out what's going on, how can we have a discussion?
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing this is just sad. Quote me saying what you accuse me of, otherwise you are simply a liar and this can go no further.

Erm, my opinion is my point dummy. Thats what this whole discussion, its about our opinions on the playoff structure. I almost feel bad for you.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
smokey1212 wrote:

Allen said he would play the hot hand, in what world is McFadden's hand hot?

He touched Dennis Allen's seat before the game.
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bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Laughing this is just sad. Quote me saying what you accuse me of, otherwise you are simply a liar and this can go no further.

Erm, my opinion is my point dummy. Thats what this whole discussion, its about our opinions on the playoff structure. I almost feel bad for you.
I thought a discussion board wasn't just a place to plaster your opinion, but actually attempt to back it up with some sort of logic. I'm sorry you fell short of my expectations.

I'm not going to back and quote anything. Heck, you quoted yourself and tried to deny what you wrote.
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Malik


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reason owners may want to change: They believe that because they finished with a better playoff record they should get an extra home game (revenue!) because they built a better team than a 7-9 or 8-8 team.
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KingOfTheDot


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant believe guys are behind this

New Orleans just walked into Philly and won

There's a reason division winners get a home game because its a tournament within the tournament

The first goal of every team is to win their division and get a home playoff game

how do you reward a team for not winning their division by giving them a home game over a team that won their division
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spilltray


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik wrote:
Reason owners may want to change: They believe that because they finished with a better playoff record they should get an extra home game (revenue!) because they built a better team than a 7-9 or 8-8 team.


Sure, that's a reason a couple owners may be griping, but that's offset by an equal amount of teams that won the division and think they deserved that home playoff game.
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