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NFLPA wins appeal in the 2012 Collusion Case against the NFL
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HTTRG3Dynasty


Joined: 03 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
Nuke wrote:
Why should the NFL be separated into 2 different characters? Same entity did both acts. Logic fail.

I can homer some things with the best of them, but you're taking the cake on homerism.

Yeah. Like I said, I'm sure 31 other owners were consulted when the Redskins decided to dump Haynesworth. And I'm sure they sat down and read the details of Austin's contract. Because billionaires have time to sit around and scrutinize every move made by every NFL team.

Redskins and Cowboys fans should be upset at their teams' terrible management, not at Mara for dishing out justice. But that would be self loathing, which is unhealthy. So I'm kind of glad you guys have somebody else to hate, even though the anger is misplaced.


You have a skewed outlook on what constitutes "justice". That other poster was right, it's just pure and unflinching homerism on your part.
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
Nuke wrote:
Why should the NFL be separated into 2 different characters? Same entity did both acts. Logic fail.

I can homer some things with the best of them, but you're taking the cake on homerism.

Yeah. Like I said, I'm sure 31 other owners were consulted when the Redskins decided to dump Haynesworth. And I'm sure they sat down and read the details of Austin's contract. Because billionaires have time to sit around and scrutinize every move made by every NFL team.

Redskins and Cowboys fans should be upset at their teams' terrible management, not at Mara for dishing out justice. But that would be self loathing, which is unhealthy. So I'm kind of glad you guys have somebody else to hate, even though the anger is misplaced.


Here's where I step in and disagree. Billionaires don't have time to scrutinize every contract. That's why they spend millions to create a league office where they have tons of people looking at and scrutinizing every contract that comes through. It requires a willing suspension of disbelief that the league office was not aware of the details of the contracts as they came in since the league office reviews each contract for items that are against the CBA, cap #'s, etc... and advises the team if a contract is null and void as a result of the language inside.

Am I upset about my team's mismanagement? Sure am. I loathe Daniel Snyder for what he did to my team for over a decade. Do I consider what the team did in the uncapped year to be mismanagement? On the contrary, it was a smart move considering the year was uncapped and the owner had the cash to spend on absorbing the salary hit in that year. Doesn't change the fact that, while we agree there was collusion, they shouldn't have penalized the 2 teams (actually 4 but IIRC they told the other 2 to vote yes or also get penalized). The Redskins have been managed much better the last few years in the front office simply due to Snyder staying out of things (for the most part)
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagles101 wrote:
Would it still be collusion since the punishment was handed out after? They allowed them to do it but said under new contract they will be punished.


It was still collusion. But the only way to get the punishment on the new contract was to get the NFLPA to sign off on it. Had the NFLPA not agree to sign off on the punishment, the Cowboys and Redskins would not have lost cap space and the suit that we're talking about that the NFLPA has brought would most probably be successful.

But since in the pursuit of getting the short term cap increase, the NFLPA signed away all rights to sue for any illegal activities by the owners, this lawsuit is going nowhere.
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
When do we get to burn down the Giants stadium? Thats all I care about. Someone PM me the deets when thats decided.

Someone already beat you to the punch...

Giants Stadium was blown up a few years ago
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
BigJohnson wrote:
Literally makes no sense and that's a whole lot of assumption on your part. Bottom line is that the Redskins and Cowboys didn't treat the uncapped year as a capped year. Unless you can prove to me that Jerry Jones and Snyder looked the other owners in the eye and agreed to a secret salary cap and THEN dumped money into the uncapped year, your argument has no merit. None at all. Mara is scum.

You do realize that 29 other owners and the commissioner had to agree that there was wrong doing, right? Rolling Eyes


Hehe...let's see. 28 other teams agreed that 4 teams "violated" an unwritten agreement. They then said...

"hey I know, let's vote for a cap increase for 28 teams of $1.5M each and let's punish the 2 teams with owners that have no problems spending money and will now that they are out of cap hell"

"so let's vote ourselves their money (in essence)"

Yup. Sounds like they really needed to dig deep to find "wrong doing". I'd like to vote myself money too. Laughing

Plus you're missing the biggest issue. The 28 owners could vote all they wanted to. They still needed the NFLPA to enact the punishment since they knew that what they were doing was wrong.
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thaiphoon wrote:
eagles101 wrote:
Would it still be collusion since the punishment was handed out after? They allowed them to do it but said under new contract they will be punished.


It was still collusion. But the only way to get the punishment on the new contract was to get the NFLPA to sign off on it. Had the NFLPA not agree to sign off on the punishment, the Cowboys and Redskins would not have lost cap space and the suit that we're talking about that the NFLPA has brought would most probably be successful.

But since in the pursuit of getting the short term cap increase, the NFLPA signed away all rights to sue for any illegal activities by the owners, this lawsuit is going nowhere.


But who are they trying to defraud? Wouldn't collusion come down to which if the warning takes president over the agreement to the contracts.
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vikingsvikings wrote:

I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
When do we get to burn down the Giants stadium? Thats all I care about. Someone PM me the deets when thats decided.

Someone already beat you to the punch...

Giants Stadium was blown up a few years ago


Sorry, I meant jets stadium, were the giants rent 8 games a season.
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either way I'm hoping for two things from this suit:

1.) Embarrassing stuff (to the NFL) to come out during discovery.
2.) The judge to throw out the suit and the NFLPA to end up with nothing as a result (no increased spending relative to the increase in cap during those two years and no ability to sue for collusion).

Schadenfreude...
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagles101 wrote:
Thaiphoon wrote:
eagles101 wrote:
Would it still be collusion since the punishment was handed out after? They allowed them to do it but said under new contract they will be punished.


It was still collusion. But the only way to get the punishment on the new contract was to get the NFLPA to sign off on it. Had the NFLPA not agree to sign off on the punishment, the Cowboys and Redskins would not have lost cap space and the suit that we're talking about that the NFLPA has brought would most probably be successful.

But since in the pursuit of getting the short term cap increase, the NFLPA signed away all rights to sue for any illegal activities by the owners, this lawsuit is going nowhere.


But who are they trying to defraud? Wouldn't collusion come down to which if the warning takes president over the agreement to the contracts.


Were the players in the room when the owners agreed to this "unwritten rule"? If not then the players were defrauded. In this NFL, since there is collective bargaining and there is a union, the owners cannot agree to have rules about cap/contracts/etc... without the players signing off first.
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just leave you with Goddell's quote on the matter.

Quote:
“Okay, it’s actually quite simple, but it may sound a little more complicated,” Goodell said. “When we went into the uncapped year, we told everybody – including the union – that we were going to make sure that competitive issues were gonna be considered when we came out of it. If people got competitive advantages in some fashion by doing certain things in an uncapped year, that would be considered with the labor agreement. That’s exactly what we did. Teams took advantage and dumped contracts into an uncapped year, and got an advantage going forward. That was a competitive advantage. Those are the kinds of things that needed to be balanced in, and the players association and us agreed to that. That’s what we agreed to, and every club was told that in advance. And then the players association were told that that was gonna be a big issue, and we negotiated it. And that’s the simple answer.”


From what Goddell is saying, it sounds like the league had very little control of what teams did cap wise in that uncapped year. But it also sounds like he made the consequences quite clear. Bottom line is that most teams got the message, the teams that didn't, got penalized. Fair is fair.
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Acgott wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
When do we get to burn down the Giants stadium? Thats all I care about. Someone PM me the deets when thats decided.

Someone already beat you to the punch...

Giants Stadium was blown up a few years ago


Sorry, I meant jets stadium, were the giants rent 8 games a season.

Those poor Jet fans. Blowing up their stadium for no reason
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gmen wrote:
I'll just leave you with Goddell's quote on the matter.

Quote:
“Okay, it’s actually quite simple, but it may sound a little more complicated,” Goodell said. “When we went into the uncapped year, we told everybody – including the union – that we were going to make sure that competitive issues were gonna be considered when we came out of it. If people got competitive advantages in some fashion by doing certain things in an uncapped year, that would be considered with the labor agreement. That’s exactly what we did. Teams took advantage and dumped contracts into an uncapped year, and got an advantage going forward. That was a competitive advantage. Those are the kinds of things that needed to be balanced in, and the players association and us agreed to that. That’s what we agreed to, and every club was told that in advance. And then the players association were told that that was gonna be a big issue, and we negotiated it. And that’s the simple answer.”


From what Goddell is saying, it sounds like the league had very little control of what teams did cap wise in that uncapped year. But it also sounds like he made the consequences quite clear. Bottom line is that most teams got the message, the teams that didn't, got penalized. Fair is fair.


Don't regard it as "fair" but I definitely understand the owners wanting to punish Dan and Jerruh. I would too if I had the choice to dump contracts into an uncapped year but lacked the ability or willingness to do so and watched two teams who were in cap hell get out of it by spending their owner's cash in one year.

So that's not even on my radar as to who should get screwed here as a result of this lawsuit (going back to the OP). For the NFL, I just hope they get embarrassed.

I'm hoping the NFLPA gets screwed over and keeps getting screwed over.
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Thaiphoon


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Acgott wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
When do we get to burn down the Giants stadium? Thats all I care about. Someone PM me the deets when thats decided.

Someone already beat you to the punch...

Giants Stadium was blown up a few years ago


Sorry, I meant jets stadium, were the giants rent 8 games a season.

Those poor Jet fans. Blowing up their stadium for no reason


Just snorted Pepsi out of my nose...thanks! Laughing
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not like the Redskins and Cowboys can get that money back on their salary cap
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thaiphoon wrote:
eagles101 wrote:
Thaiphoon wrote:
eagles101 wrote:
Would it still be collusion since the punishment was handed out after? They allowed them to do it but said under new contract they will be punished.


It was still collusion. But the only way to get the punishment on the new contract was to get the NFLPA to sign off on it. Had the NFLPA not agree to sign off on the punishment, the Cowboys and Redskins would not have lost cap space and the suit that we're talking about that the NFLPA has brought would most probably be successful.

But since in the pursuit of getting the short term cap increase, the NFLPA signed away all rights to sue for any illegal activities by the owners, this lawsuit is going nowhere.


But who are they trying to defraud? Wouldn't collusion come down to which if the warning takes president over the agreement to the contracts.


Were the players in the room when the owners agreed to this "unwritten rule"? If not then the players were defrauded. In this NFL, since there is collective bargaining and there is a union, the owners cannot agree to have rules about cap/contracts/etc... without the players signing off first.


How does it effect players though. They didn't get punished.
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vikingsvikings wrote:

I don't understand most of that, but I can tell it's probably inaccurate.
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