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Blade Runner 2049 (2017, Villeneuve)
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
Posts: 5911
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
I just hate, "It sucks..." It's willful ignorance and stubbornness.


No its not. All art is subjective and everyone is due their own taste.

Yes, it is. All art is subjective to the individual, but film quality is not subjective overall to the whims of some 18 year old kid who thinks Citizen Kane is a "gay old movie," or Blade Runner "sucks." No matter how hard you want to convince yourself otherwise.

By that logic, Tim Tebow is the greatest QB ever because I liked him more than I like Tom Brady.

In other words, there's no logic to your argument and you're wrong.
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Clutch5000


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 5446
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HorizontoZenith wrote:
BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
I just hate, "It sucks..." It's willful ignorance and stubbornness.


No its not. All art is subjective and everyone is due their own taste.

Yes, it is. All art is subjective to the individual, but film quality is not subjective overall to the whims of some 18 year old kid who thinks Citizen Kane is a "gay old movie," or Blade Runner "sucks." No matter how hard you want to convince yourself otherwise.

By that logic, Tim Tebow is the greatest QB ever because I liked him more than I like Tom Brady.

In other words, there's no logic to your argument and you're wrong.


You sound like an overly sensitive child upset about a group of people not liking your favorite movie. Football isn't art. There's a definitive outcome in it. With movies it's a form of art.
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Jaguarfan


Joined: 27 Nov 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
I just hate, "It sucks..." It's willful ignorance and stubbornness.


No its not. All art is subjective and everyone is due their own taste.

There is no difference in objectivity between 'its amazing' and 'it sucks'. Its all a matter of opinion, and no one is truly right or wrong.

That's a good point dude. Actually, quality doesn't exist. It's just about what you perceive as quality, maaaaaaaaaan.
So that being said, The Godfather is the worst movie ever made. Not "I don't like it", I genuinely think it's the worst movie of all time. Just bad filmmaking all around. And it's my opinion, so it's just as valid as yours Cool Cool Cool
Clutch5000 wrote:
HorizontoZenith wrote:
I just hate, "It sucks..." It's willful ignorance and stubbornness. To say Blade Runner sucks, you better be saying that a good portion of every science fiction movie made after it also sucks because the impact and influence Blade Runner had on probably hundreds of movies since it was released surely means you're the only thing that sucks if you're gonna say it sucks. Transformer sequels suck. Blade Runner, Citizen Kane, other great movies that are probably really boring to some people don't suck, you just didn't like them. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, in slightly unrelated news, Villeneuve is in talks to direct a Dune reboot. Dune was easily my favorite book series as a kid.


Transformer sequels can't suck because they were heavily impacted and influenced from the original Transformers movie.

I realize you're joking to a certain extent, but that is the precise opposite of what he said Laughing
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Clutch5000


Joined: 16 May 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ that was the point lol.
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
Posts: 5911
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch5000 wrote:
You sound like an overly sensitive child upset about a group of people not liking your favorite movie. Football isn't art. There's a definitive outcome in it. With movies it's a form of art.

Except I kinda said on the first page that Blade Runner is far from one of my favorite movies, so... Nice try, but you're wrong. Surprised

To say that art is all subjective is to ignore the blatantly obvious skill and talent involved in creating it. We'll use music. Music is art. If anybody is going to argue that Freddie Mercury wasn't more physically and creatively gifted than Lil Wayne, they're an idiot. His talent is definable and tangible by measuring his vocal range. His lyrics are exponentially better according to anybody that has ever studied poetic or lyrical prose.

The problem is that there are morons who can't or won't understand that elements of filmmaking are measurable.

A man who has never played football can sit on the couch and say that Tim Tebow is a better quarterback than _____. People who have played football, who understand what it takes to play football, who have coached football, who have studied the game can point to fundamentals involved in football to definitively say the couch man is an idiot.

People who have studied film, who have made films, and who know what's involved in filmmaking from script to production to the screen have that same power.

And to the person who's clearly not capable of comprehending it, I used football as an analogy, not a comparison.
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BayRaider


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two great actors with a great director.

The movie looking awesome so far is just a bonus.
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Clutch5000


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 5446
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HorizontoZenith wrote:
Clutch5000 wrote:
You sound like an overly sensitive child upset about a group of people not liking your favorite movie. Football isn't art. There's a definitive outcome in it. With movies it's a form of art.

Except I kinda said on the first page that Blade Runner is far from one of my favorite movies, so... Nice try, but you're wrong. Surprised

To say that art is all subjective is to ignore the blatantly obvious skill and talent involved in creating it. We'll use music. Music is art. If anybody is going to argue that Freddie Mercury wasn't more physically and creatively gifted than Lil Wayne, they're an idiot. His talent is definable and tangible by measuring his vocal range. His lyrics are exponentially better according to anybody that has ever studied poetic or lyrical prose.

The problem is that there are morons who can't or won't understand that elements of filmmaking are measurable.

A man who has never played football can sit on the couch and say that Tim Tebow is a better quarterback than _____. People who have played football, who understand what it takes to play football, who have coached football, who have studied the game can point to fundamentals involved in football to definitively say the couch man is an idiot.

People who have studied film, who have made films, and who know what's involved in filmmaking from script to production to the screen have that same power.

And to the person who's clearly not capable of comprehending it, I used football as an analogy, not a comparison.


Music like film is subjective. It's the whole reason there's critics in the first place lol. Your football analogy/comparison/whatever your want to call it is dumb. There's movie critics, there's music critics, i've yet to see a football critic.

You are saying something is better than another but the reason you are giving is nothing more than "most knowledgeable critics like this too!".
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
Posts: 5911
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch5000 wrote:
Music like film is subjective. It's the whole reason there's critics in the first place lol. Your football analogy/comparison/whatever your want to call it is dumb. There's movie critics, there's music critics, i've yet to see a football critic.

You are saying something is better than another but the reason you are giving is nothing more than "most knowledgeable critics like this too!".

I just gave you an example of why music isn't subjective and you seem to be either too stupid, dense or stubborn to understand.

http://consequenceofsound.net/2016/04/new-scientific-study-confirms-the-audience-freddie-mercury-had-an-unparalleled-singing-voice/

Scientific evidence to show that some singers have more talent than others.

You could do the same with directors and with films. There are directors who simply have more attention to detail, who put more into their films, who direct every single frame and image that appears in their film. Every single frame of Raging Bull is like a classic art painting. Every frame in Kubrick films are meticulously detailed to the point of obsession.

It's not just about critics. Anybody can be a critic. It's about pure, definable talent.

This argument comes up about once every six months here and the people like you who can't acknowledge the fact that film isn't just art and that opinions don't dictate the quality of film are among the worst people in the world. It's extreme hubris and ignorance. I'm just thankful that I've realized the difference between quality and enjoyment. I'm not stubborn enough to say that Waterworld is a good movie and that Citizen Kane is a crap movie because I enjoyed the prior and disliked the latter. I'm happy I'm not so arrogant, stubborn and borderline dumb to think I hold the power to irrefutably make a movie good or bad based on how much I liked it.

It would be nice if things worked like that in real life though.
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vike daddy


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Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Posts: 82974
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
Two great actors with a great director.

The movie looking awesome so far is just a bonus.

thank you.

so much better to read a view like this than little kids arguing with each other.
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O'Doyle Rules


Joined: 25 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Two great actors with a great director.

The movie looking awesome so far is just a bonus.

thank you.

so much better to read a view like this than little kids arguing with each other.


Ohh snap.

Vike daddy-1

Little kids-0
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Jaguarfan


Joined: 27 Nov 2011
Posts: 27986
Location: KILL ME
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

O'Doyle Rules wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
BayRaider wrote:
Two great actors with a great director.

The movie looking awesome so far is just a bonus.

thank you.

so much better to read a view like this than little kids arguing with each other.


Ohh snap.

Vike daddy-1

Little kids-0

looks lets be fair here, compared to Vike Daddy, all of us are kids
dude is old
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
Posts: 5911
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BayRaider wrote:
Two great actors with a great director.

The movie looking awesome so far is just a bonus.

Thank you. So much better to read than grumpy old men who want to dictate what, exactly, is discussed.
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Clutch5000


Joined: 16 May 2014
Posts: 5446
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HorizontoZenith wrote:
Clutch5000 wrote:
Music like film is subjective. It's the whole reason there's critics in the first place lol. Your football analogy/comparison/whatever your want to call it is dumb. There's movie critics, there's music critics, i've yet to see a football critic.

You are saying something is better than another but the reason you are giving is nothing more than "most knowledgeable critics like this too!".

I just gave you an example of why music isn't subjective and you seem to be either too stupid, dense or stubborn to understand.

http://consequenceofsound.net/2016/04/new-scientific-study-confirms-the-audience-freddie-mercury-had-an-unparalleled-singing-voice/

Scientific evidence to show that some singers have more talent than others.

You could do the same with directors and with films. There are directors who simply have more attention to detail, who put more into their films, who direct every single frame and image that appears in their film. Every single frame of Raging Bull is like a classic art painting. Every frame in Kubrick films are meticulously detailed to the point of obsession.

It's not just about critics. Anybody can be a critic. It's about pure, definable talent.

This argument comes up about once every six months here and the people like you who can't acknowledge the fact that film isn't just art and that opinions don't dictate the quality of film are among the worst people in the world. It's extreme hubris and ignorance. I'm just thankful that I've realized the difference between quality and enjoyment. I'm not stubborn enough to say that Waterworld is a good movie and that Citizen Kane is a crap movie because I enjoyed the prior and disliked the latter. I'm happy I'm not so arrogant, stubborn and borderline dumb to think I hold the power to irrefutably make a movie good or bad based on how much I liked it.

It would be nice if things worked like that in real life though.


Ok, despite you being a [inappropriate/removed] I understand your point to an extent. The thing is you should be able to say a movie is good or bad but not just on how much you liked it or not. It should be based off that in addition to what makes it unenjoyable. Like I didn't like the story, slow pace, poor development of the characters and the dialogue. Those things make it a meh movie to me. Im not arrogant, stubborn or border line dumb enough to say that the since it's bad for me you should find it bad too.
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HorizontoZenith


Joined: 03 Mar 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch5000 wrote:
Ok, despite you being a [inappropriate/removed] I understand your point to an extent. The thing is you should be able to say a movie is good or bad but not just on how much you liked it or not. It should be based off that in addition to what makes it unenjoyable. Like I didn't like the story, slow pace, poor development of the characters and the dialogue. Those things make it a meh movie to me. Im not arrogant, stubborn or border line dumb enough to say that the since it's bad for me you should find it bad too.

What you're not understanding about the point I'm trying to make is purely semantics. If you don't like a movie, it's not a bad movie. Even to you. It just means you don't like it. Yeah, I'll grant that I'm acting like a snob, but it gets so frustrating when people don't understand this simple fact.

You can have the best ingredients in the world, organic-fed beef, the finest spices and prepared by the best chef in the world and somebody might not like beef. It's still quality, and you can't say it was a crap meal just because you didn't like it.

Those things don't make it a "meh movie to you," those things mean you didn't like the movie and that it was "meh" as far as entertainment to you.
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Clutch5000


Joined: 16 May 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HorizontoZenith wrote:
Clutch5000 wrote:
Ok, despite you being a [inappropriate/removed] I understand your point to an extent. The thing is you should be able to say a movie is good or bad but not just on how much you liked it or not. It should be based off that in addition to what makes it unenjoyable. Like I didn't like the story, slow pace, poor development of the characters and the dialogue. Those things make it a meh movie to me. Im not arrogant, stubborn or border line dumb enough to say that the since it's bad for me you should find it bad too.

What you're not understanding about the point I'm trying to make is purely semantics. If you don't like a movie, it's not a bad movie. Even to you. It just means you don't like it. Yeah, I'll grant that I'm acting like a snob, but it gets so frustrating when people don't understand this simple fact.

You can have the best ingredients in the world, organic-fed beef, the finest spices and prepared by the best chef in the world and somebody might not like beef. It's still quality, and you can't say it was a crap meal just because you didn't like it.

Those things don't make it a "meh movie to you," those things mean you didn't like the movie and that it was "meh" as far as entertainment to you.


I apologize and we'll keep this more civil cause I don't want to use this for the actual sake of learning and I'm keeping open minded on this. So what do you use to quantify whether Blade runner as a good movie? What am I as the watcher missing that makes this a great movie even though I for the most part dislike the movie?
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