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jcm412


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3852
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give me a different 1st pick for the Steelers and you have a pretty good draft.
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Crickett


Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 4629
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Myth wrote:
If you judged who they were taking by who they have had contact, there would be about 200+ picks to choose from. LOL.


And how many of those picks were linebacker projected to go in the first two rounds?

Myth wrote:
It's not really about Lions fans wanting defense, it's about logic. The offense was already much better stocked overall with skill positions. Then Bob Quinn supplimented the o-line through free agency with the most expensive free agents that they spent money on, with starting level players for the o-line.


Much better stocked? I'm sorry, I don't see it. They may have more players they invested high draft picks on offense, but the only really good skill position players I see in Detroit are Stafford, Tate and Jones. Ameer Abdullah is a potato chip, Theo Riddick is a complementary back who provides a receiver out of the backfield. Eric Ebron is.... not really what the Lions were expecting I think. The Lions have no one of note at wide receiver past Tate and Jones. To say it's logic that the Lions would invest their entire draft in defense implies their offense is stacked from stem to stern. It isn't.

Myth wrote:
Conversely, the defense was without a doubt in my mind the worst in the NFL. If you want to debate that, I feel pretty confident I will win. The linebackers and d-line were horrendous. The secondary was probably the best part of that defense with 2 players who were decent. And the players picked up in free agency so far for defense are all depth/backup level.


The Lions were 13th in scoring defense.
The Lions were 18th in total defense.
The Lions were 19th in passing defense.
The Lions were 18th in rushing defense.

Clearly not the worst defense in the NFL.

Myth wrote:
Cornelius Washington and Akeem Spence are the best defensive additions, so far. I'm not sure anyone could pick either of those two out of a lineup. Corny is going to fill the non-premier LDE, strong-side base DE. Ziggy will be back healthy (which he wasn't all last year) and they have 3 pass rush specialists. I mean you can never have enough pass rushers, I guess... But honestly, that's not the area they need the most help.


The Lions were second to last in the league last year in sacks (off by only one) and the two players they added (Spence and Washington) have a combined total of 8.5 career sacks. It looks an awful lot to me like they could use some pass rushing help.

Myth wrote:
Spence may or may not be able to be a starting pass-rushing/gap shooting 3T DT. I'm skeptical that he's a starter because that has not been his past role (which iirc was more of a rotational run stuffer). Therefore, I think he's just another rotational piece at worst and honestly there's little likelihood that he could be any worse than what they had starting last year. Haloti Ngata has clearly lost a step, nor can he be relied on to be healthy for more than 8 games. A'Shawn provides no qb pressure whatsoever and his best play is knocking balls down by getting his hands up as he stands 6-10 yards away from the QB ... every single down. He makes a fine tree, but he never lands on the QB. And those are the ones BQ kept. Jordan Hill (another free agent) and Kyrie Thornton (yawn) are filler pieces who could be cut without us even realizing they were gone. There isn't a difference maker at DT anywhere on the roster. Overall, BQ restocked the backup depth with some players with upside, but no history of success.


It looks very much to be like this has become a case of 'where do the Lions need pass rushing help'. I'm explained why I don't think they may not be looking to draft a defensive tackle. They kept Ngata despite his age, they signed Spence to a long term contract and they drafted Robinson last year. Meanwhile, they've had multiple meetings with each of the following:
Takkerist McKinley
Taco Charlton
Charles Harris
Tanoh Kpassagnon
Derek Rivers

Myth wrote:
Linebacker was even worse last year... which didn't help either the d-line or the secondary. Tahir Whitehead was the only healthy starting level LB (and I'm being generous calling him that) on the squad at one point. BQ got rid of Levy because he couldn't get on the field and was getting old. So, the free agent linebacker BQ picked up is Paul Worrilow. Ask Falcon fans how well they think he'll do for the Lions. I'm just hopeful he can be a contributor on special teams at this point.


I agree which is why I had the Lions draft a linebacker in the first two rounds in both mock drafts. But overall, I think this is a weak year for 4-3 linebackers and I'm not sure it's worth it for the Lions to double up when there are so many other directions they could go. I don't think the Lions will draft a defensive tackle, but even I would admit it's certainly a possibility. Maybe they're only holding on to Ngata in case they aren't able to draft one and once they are, they'll cut ties.

Myth wrote:
So, this isn't about Lion fans' wants. It's about common sense. They need starters at either MLB or WLB, or both (preferably a playmaker because they don't have one at that level of the defense); the 3T DT to make the d-line competent -- even if you believe in Spence; a #2 CB; and 4th-ly a DE who can be a big body who could give Corny a break/run for the money. And then there are depth needs at FS, TE, and power RB before you ever get to a slot-receiver (which isn't a real need because the RBs and TEs also fill the slot and they have 2 guys at WR already who can only play slot receiver (TJ Jones and Jace Billingsley) plus Golden Tate, who can make nickel CBs look silly from the slot).


My apologies, but I don't find TJ Jones and Jace Billingsley a sufficiently compelling reason to think the Lions won't draft a receiver somewhere along the line.


Myth wrote:
I know I'm not going to change your opinion. That's okay. But don't say a Lion fan didn't give you any input to help clarify things. C'est la vie.


I'm sorry, but I do not find your arguments to be compelling. Everything the Lions have gone this offseason has indicated they intend to select a pass rushing defensive end early. Maybe that's just a smokescreen and maybe I am putting too much trust in whom teams are meeting with. It's entirely possible the Lions could indeed double up on linebacker, but if they do, I think it would come at the expense of something else they really need. I tried to focus the majority of their picks on defense, but I don't think the Lions D is so bad they need to devote their entire draft to it. Heck, I don't think the 49ers are going to devote their entire draft to defense and they do have a real case for worst in the NFL. They're a team that just went 32nd in scoring, total and rushing defense. Add to that the one thing they had going for them, their 14th ranked pass defense just lost two starting defensive backs to free agency/scandal without really replacing them.

And even then, I could see them (the 49ers) drafting a running back or a quarterback or an offensive lineman or something.
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BillsGuy82


Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 12122
Location: Niagara Falls
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1 looked better, any way you could give us OLB Tim Williams in 3 instead
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Myth


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crickett wrote:
Myth wrote:
If you judged who they were taking by who they have had contact, there would be about 200+ picks to choose from. LOL.


And how many of those picks were linebacker projected to go in the first two rounds?


At one time or another all of them. Some have multiple contacts. You aren't going to find all visits listed in one source, though. At some point they've either talked with or attended a workout with almost every defensive player in the top rounds. They committed tons of money to their scouting budget this year and you can't read about a pro day that the Lions did not have somebody working out a player, taking them to dinner, or just have somebody in attendance. You really can't judge anything from that this year.

Quote:

Myth wrote:
It's not really about Lions fans wanting defense, it's about logic. The offense was already much better stocked overall with skill positions. Then Bob Quinn supplimented the o-line through free agency with the most expensive free agents that they spent money on, with starting level players for the o-line.


Much better stocked? I'm sorry, I don't see it. They may have more players they invested high draft picks on offense, but the only really good skill position players I see in Detroit are Stafford, Tate and Jones. Ameer Abdullah is a potato chip, Theo Riddick is a complementary back who provides a receiver out of the backfield. Eric Ebron is.... not really what the Lions were expecting I think. The Lions have no one of note at wide receiver past Tate and Jones. To say it's logic that the Lions would invest their entire draft in defense implies their offense is stacked from stem to stern. It isn't.


Does a receiver have to be a WR? How about a TE? Of note? What does that even mean when your looking the 6 th receiving option? You created a straw man here. It's disingenuous and rather irritating for you to state that I made such absolute statements like "the entire draft should be defense" is clearly a bastardization of anything I've said. I mention where the Lions need help on offense down below. But I don't believe any offensive need surpasses the defensive needs I've listed. If there is value at a position Bob Quinn has shown he will change his script and take BPA if it's good enough. I just don't think the WRs you want the Lions to take fit into that category.

Let me understand your logic, now. They already have invested high draft picks and lots of free agent money to their offense, so now you want them to throw another high pick to an offensive player who may see the field maybe 15-20% of the time if they can prove they are playmakers. I'm not saying they won't draft any offense. It's just not likely in the first 3 rounds.

Whether you like them or not, the Lions have invested in those offensive players and consider then good starters. I did forget to mention they added a blocking TE, but I didn't think that was terribly important at the time. I think Ebron has taken a lot of heat and taken some unfair criticism for things he had no control over. It's not his fault he was taken before other players or that he got injured at inopportune moments. But he is very young still and and has improved every year. I'm not giving up on him yet.

I happen to agree with you to a certain extent about the RBs...slightly. I personally would prefer a full time, workhorse RB or Barry Sanders... But not many teams do that anymore. Ameer is very talented and there is too much temptation to overuse him. You didn't get to see much of him last year, but injuries can happen to any player. And when he was healthy he was by far our best RB. The fact is that Theo and Ameer are also excellent receivers out of the backfield and create mismatches out of the backfield and the slot. They are highly targeted RBs in this pass-oriented offense... Which is a trend in the NFL. This means that 3rd WRs in this offense get fewer options than most #3 WRs. So why spend more resources on that? Their investment in the o-line during free agency shows what they thought was a problem... And they weren't wrong on that.

Quote:

Myth wrote:
Conversely, the defense was without a doubt in my mind the worst in the NFL. If you want to debate that, I feel pretty confident I will win. The linebackers and d-line were horrendous. The secondary was probably the best part of that defense with 2 players who were decent. And the players picked up in free agency so far for defense are all depth/backup level.


The Lions were 13th in scoring defense.
The Lions were 18th in total defense.
The Lions were 19th in passing defense.
The Lions were 18th in rushing defense.

Clearly not the worst defense in the NFL.


Smoke and mirrors. Those numbers are suspect without context. You have heard the old saw about numbers lying? Here is your proof. I've actually seen similar arguments on lion boards using similar looking numbers. Ultimately it came down to context. It isn't my bag to pull numbers out of a hat and rely on that to tell you the story.

So here's how these numbers were manipulated by Caldwell, Teryl Austen and Jim Bob Cooter, in case you've never heard this:

The Lions had almost no pass rush because Ziggy was injured and Devin Taylor regressed to his days playing across from J. Clowney (benched). Even so the pass rush specialists and Ziggy still could turn the corner and beat their man, but all the opposing RB or QB had to do was step up into the middle where the DTs should have stuffed them... But they couldn't.

The linebackers all ended up hurt early on except for Tahir Whitehead. The only self-supporting group on defense was the back 4. So,because they couldn't find 3 linebackers worth putting on the field they ended up playing the nickel or heavy nickel with 3 safeties. This ended up being their most effective defense. But you see in order for the back end to compensate for the front 6 ( who couldn't stop passes to the flats or quick tosses to TEs over the middle) the Dbs played what amounted to a prevent defense the whole season. The opposing offenses in essense could march methodically downfield, if they could maintain their discipline and not do something stupid. It took time off the board and was a tiring scorched earth defensive scheme.

So the quick strike offense with Marvin Jones running deep, that Jim Bob Cooter had developed during the off-season was scrapped for a complimentary offense that would grind time off the clock. Without a power game, because there isn't a big grinder RB and the o-line had some faults, they made this work with short throw to Tate, and those RBs you don't like to give then the verisimilitude of a ball control offense with YAC. Thus giving their inept defense time to rest and keeping the opposing offenses off the field.

Caldwell played every game to have the last possession of the ball on offense and keep it close enough throughout the middle to give them a chance at the end.

It was sort of brilliant, until teams figured out what he was doing. Frustrating to watch, though hilarious in a way. I saw the worst defense I've ever seen the Lions play ever (including the worst season ever played). If the offense was less talented, it would never have worked... Nevertheless they made it to the playoffs hobbling on one wheel and a crutch.

Quote:

Myth wrote:
Cornelius Washington and Akeem Spence are the best defensive additions, so far. I'm not sure anyone could pick either of those two out of a lineup. Corny is going to fill the non-premier LDE, strong-side base DE. Ziggy will be back healthy (which he wasn't all last year) and they have 3 pass rush specialists. I mean you can never have enough pass rushers, I guess... But honestly, that's not the area they need the most help.


The Lions were second to last in the league last year in sacks (off by only one) and the two players they added (Spence and Washington) have a combined total of 8.5 career sacks. It looks an awful lot to me like they could use some pass rushing help.


I'm not actually disagreeing here. We are disagreeing where that should come from. The whole defense could use a shot in the arm, really. Bob Quinn wants to build through the draft. And that's why this should logically be a defensive heavy draft. He filled depth and backup position with low level signings of free agents. Spence is not a sack master, as you evidence with your numbers. I'm not sure what Corny's role was on his defense so I'm going to hazard a question that he wasn't a guy with a lot of playing time.

Even with Corny, they need another strongside LDE...but that is not what your premier pass rusher is. Teryl Austen has made a living by taken cast offs and tweener and turning them into productive LDEs. I think they made a mistake last year by putting all their eggs in Devon Taylor's basket. so I don't want that to happen again. However, in a strange twist they discovered that they have some underrated pass rush specialists who can cause havoc on the edges if they can get some support from the interior and behind them with the LB s. Kerry Hyder actually had most of those sacks you mentioned above. With Ziggy healthy again, the DEs aren't as weak as you think. & if you think the Lions are going to find another Ziggy, or Ziggy's replacement in this draft, it isn't happening.

But at 21 they can find a playmaking LB. And they need one DT who can close on a QB every once in a while from the middle. That is the scheme. That is how it's built. Starting DTs can be found 2nd round on, not just the 1st round. If they strengthen the middle they improve the whole defense.

Plus if they get a LB who can blitz (which would be a revelation to Lion fans since we have not seen a LB who could get there for about 4 years maybe... It's been a long time.) That also would contribute to the pass rush. Pass rush doesn't just come from the edge.


Quote:

Myth wrote:
Spence may or may not be able to be a starting pass-rushing/gap shooting 3T DT. I'm skeptical that he's a starter because that has not been his past role (which iirc was more of a rotational run stuffer). Therefore, I think he's just another rotational piece at worst and honestly there's little likelihood that he could be any worse than what they had starting last year. Haloti Ngata has clearly lost a step, nor can he be relied on to be healthy for more than 8 games. A'Shawn provides no qb pressure whatsoever and his best play is knocking balls down by getting his hands up as he stands 6-10 yards away from the QB ... every single down. He makes a fine tree, but he never lands on the QB. And those are the ones BQ kept. Jordan Hill (another free agent) and Kyrie Thornton (yawn) are filler pieces who could be cut without us even realizing they were gone. There isn't a difference maker at DT anywhere on the roster. Overall, BQ restocked the backup depth with some players with upside, but no history of success.


It looks very much to be like this has become a case of 'where do the Lions need pass rushing help'. I'm explained why I don't think they may not be looking to draft a defensive tackle. They kept Ngata despite his age, they signed Spence to a long term contract and they drafted Robinson last year. Meanwhile, they've had multiple meetings with each of the following:
Takkerist McKinley
Taco Charlton
Charles Harris
Tanoh Kpassagnon
Derek Rivers


And quite a few others as I mentioned above from high to low. I really like Kpassagnon and Rivers. They aren't first rounders.

I think you are expecting way more from Spence than Lion fans are. I'm not sure what implication his contract has for the future, but I've heard no Lions analyst say that he is the answer in the middle nor that he is a huge commitment. But if so, they've walked away from huge contracts and bit the bullet on dead money before. I understand what you're saying and believe you are wrong to put such an emphasis on DE over DT. I think they are both needs, I just don't see how this defense works without pressure from a 3T. Spence will help against the run game, i expect. I hope he can shoot a gap like he did not do in Tampa, but I'm not counting on it.

Quote:

Myth wrote:
Linebacker was even worse last year... which didn't help either the d-line or the secondary. Tahir Whitehead was the only healthy starting level LB (and I'm being generous calling him that) on the squad at one point. BQ got rid of Levy because he couldn't get on the field and was getting old. So, the free agent linebacker BQ picked up is Paul Worrilow. Ask Falcon fans how well they think he'll do for the Lions. I'm just hopeful he can be a contributor on special teams at this point.


I agree which is why I had the Lions draft a linebacker in the first two rounds in both mock drafts. But overall, I think this is a weak year for 4-3 linebackers and I'm not sure it's worth it for the Lions to double up when there are so many other directions they could go. I don't think the Lions will draft a defensive tackle, but even I would admit it's certainly a possibility. Maybe they're only holding on to Ngata in case they aren't able to draft one and once they are, they'll cut ties.


Eh. I think you can get a playmaker at LB with #21. Haloti is a part time player at this point. BQ made the somewhat questionable comment IMO that he likes the line depth on both sides of the ball and that he thinks the Dbs are pretty good. Noticeable was his lack of comment about the LB Corp. Maybe he doesn't go for DT or DE at all and makes buggers of us all Smile

Quote:

Myth wrote:
So, this isn't about Lion fans' wants. It's about common sense. They need starters at either MLB or WLB, or both (preferably a playmaker because they don't have one at that level of the defense); the 3T DT to make the d-line competent -- even if you believe in Spence; a #2 CB; and 4th-ly a DE who can be a big body who could give Corny a break/run for the money. And then there are depth needs at FS, TE, and power RB before you ever get to a slot-receiver (which isn't a real need because the RBs and TEs also fill the slot and they have 2 guys at WR already who can only play slot receiver (TJ Jones and Jace Billingsley) plus Golden Tate, who can make nickel CBs look silly from the slot).


My apologies, but I don't find TJ Jones and Jace Billingsley a sufficiently compelling reason to think the Lions won't draft a receiver somewhere along the line.


After Tate, Jones, Ebron, Riddick, & Abdullah I don't think I need another slot receiver to compel you. Those #3 WR's function is mainly as backups to Tate and Jones. 2 plays a game maybe if they are lucky are all they could be used for. You keep throwing absolutes around like i said they won't pick a DE. No. I didn't say that won't pick a receiver. I could definitely see a TE pick. Or they are definitely going to pick 2 LBs in this draft. I'd love it, but don't expect it. And I mentioned the offensive players in this draft they probably will value. ... but you're focused on a slot wr to the exclusion of all else.

I'm just telling you where a high to mid draft pick would make the most impact. I know my team.

But. I have spent enough time trying to inform ( others more than you at this point). I realized early on you aren't going to be swayed by my POV. Thus ...

Quote:

Myth wrote:
I know I'm not going to change your opinion. That's okay. But don't say a Lion fan didn't give you any input to help clarify things. C'est la vie.


I'm sorry, but I do not find your arguments to be compelling. Everything the Lions have gone this offseason has indicated they intend to select a pass rushing defensive end early. Maybe that's just a smokescreen and maybe I am putting too much trust in whom teams are meeting with. It's entirely possible the Lions could indeed double up on linebacker, but if they do, I think it would come at the expense of something else they really need. I tried to focus the majority of their picks on defense, but I don't think the Lions D is so bad they need to devote their entire draft to it. Heck, I don't think the 49ers are going to devote their entire draft to defense and they do have a real case for worst in the NFL. They're a team that just went 32nd in scoring, total and rushing defense. Add to that the one thing they had going for them, their 14th ranked pass defense just lost two starting defensive backs to free agency/scandal without really replacing them.

And even then, I could see them (the 49ers) drafting a running back or a quarterback or an offensive lineman or something.


If you see half a picture, it is hard to understand the perspective. The numbers are part of a story. And more like page markers than narratives. If that's what you are basing your knowledge upon you need to look deeper. You cannot possibly know all the players the Lions have talked to or scouted. I've tried and it's beyond what is published and there is too much and simultaneously not enough information.

That you won't take advantage of someone knowledgeable about their team is ... though not unexpected, still disheartening. I'm not sure why you think you have superior knowledge of the Lions. But I've been watching them religiously for roughly 40 years. Discussing them with the smartest lion fans i can find for 20 years.

How long have you immersed yourself in the Lions?
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Crickett


Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 4629
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Myth wrote:
At one time or another all of them. Some have multiple contacts. You aren't going to find all visits listed in one source, though. At some point they've either talked with or attended a workout with almost every defensive player in the top rounds. They committed tons of money to their scouting budget this year and you can't read about a pro day that the Lions did not have somebody working out a player, taking them to dinner, or just have somebody in attendance. You really can't judge anything from that this year.


http://walterfootball.com/prospectMeetings/byteam


Myth wrote:
Does a receiver have to be a WR? How about a TE? Of note? What does that even mean when your looking the 6 th receiving option? You created a straw man here. It's disingenuous and rather irritating for you to state that I made such absolute statements like "the entire draft should be defense" is clearly a bastardization of anything I've said. I mention where the Lions need help on offense down below. But I don't believe any offensive need surpasses the defensive needs I've listed. If there is value at a position Bob Quinn has shown he will change his script and take BPA if it's good enough. I just don't think the WRs you want the Lions to take fit into that category.

Let me understand your logic, now. They already have invested high draft picks and lots of free agent money to their offense, so now you want them to throw another high pick to an offensive player who may see the field maybe 15-20% of the time if they can prove they are playmakers. I'm not saying they won't draft any offense. It's just not likely in the first 3 rounds.

Whether you like them or not, the Lions have invested in those offensive players and consider then good starters. I did forget to mention they added a blocking TE, but I didn't think that was terribly important at the time. I think Ebron has taken a lot of heat and taken some unfair criticism for things he had no control over. It's not his fault he was taken before other players or that he got injured at inopportune moments. But he is very young still and and has improved every year. I'm not giving up on him yet.


If I misunderstood your statements, it was certainly not my intention. But from what I'm seeing, you seem to be arguing in two different directions then; taking issue with my logic that the Lions need help on offense despite how much money they've invested there and then you claiming they need help on offense as well, but elsewhere.

As far as Bob Quinn changing his script to fit the best player available, for the most part I think the receivers and TE's are among the best players available. In the first mock I had basically every every receiver selected after the first round going about a half a round below where I think they should and I tried to rectify that in the second one. I'm not the biggest fan of Corey Davis and Mike Williams, but I think this is a deeeep receiver class and with few exceptions, I think any team would be wise to take advantage to that.

Myth wrote:
I happen to agree with you to a certain extent about the RBs...slightly. I personally would prefer a full time, workhorse RB or Barry Sanders... But not many teams do that anymore. Ameer is very talented and there is too much temptation to overuse him. You didn't get to see much of him last year, but injuries can happen to any player. And when he was healthy he was by far our best RB. The fact is that Theo and Ameer are also excellent receivers out of the backfield and create mismatches out of the backfield and the slot. They are highly targeted RBs in this pass-oriented offense... Which is a trend in the NFL. This means that 3rd WRs in this offense get fewer options than most #3 WRs. So why spend more resources on that? Their investment in the o-line during free agency shows what they thought was a problem... And they weren't wrong on that


Last year there were 19 running backs with 200+ carries and 41 running backs who had 100+ carries. None of them were on the Lions. Injuries can happen to anyone, but when you have a player who is seemingly perpetually injured, it's time to consider he might not be the answer either in the long term or short term for his position. Last year there was a Charger fan who took issue with my exclusion of Keenan Allen from my top 15 receiver list. My reason for excluding him was he propensity to get hurt.
What happened to Keenan Allen week 1 last year? Torn ACL. Out for the year.

As for the Lions #3 WR getting less opportunities: Anquan Boldin was second on the Lions team for receptions as their slot receiver. Heck, Andre Roberts had 14 catches and he was their #4 receiver. Looks to me like they spread the ball around more than enough to accommodate a new slot receiver.

Myth wrote:
Smoke and mirrors. Those numbers are suspect without context. You have heard the old saw about numbers lying? Here is your proof. I've actually seen similar arguments on lion boards using similar looking numbers. Ultimately it came down to context. It isn't my bag to pull numbers out of a hat and rely on that to tell you the story.

So here's how these numbers were manipulated by Caldwell, Teryl Austen and Jim Bob Cooter, in case you've never heard this:

The Lions had almost no pass rush because Ziggy was injured and Devin Taylor regressed to his days playing across from J. Clowney (benched). Even so the pass rush specialists and Ziggy still could turn the corner and beat their man, but all the opposing RB or QB had to do was step up into the middle where the DTs should have stuffed them... But they couldn't.

The linebackers all ended up hurt early on except for Tahir Whitehead. The only self-supporting group on defense was the back 4. So,because they couldn't find 3 linebackers worth putting on the field they ended up playing the nickel or heavy nickel with 3 safeties. This ended up being their most effective defense. But you see in order for the back end to compensate for the front 6 ( who couldn't stop passes to the flats or quick tosses to TEs over the middle) the Dbs played what amounted to a prevent defense the whole season. The opposing offenses in essense could march methodically downfield, if they could maintain their discipline and not do something stupid. It took time off the board and was a tiring scorched earth defensive scheme.


Dude, half the league (hyperbole on my part, I haven't actually looked at the statistics on how many teams actually do it, but I know it's a bunch) uses base nickel defenses. That's not a sign that your defense is the worst in the league. Do I think the Lions defense needs to be improved? Absolutely. I wouldn't have given them 3/4ths defensive players if I didn't think they needed help there. But you described a defense that was able to adapt to circumstances well, not 'the worst defense in the league'.

Myth wrote:
I'm not actually disagreeing here. We are disagreeing where that should come from. The whole defense could use a shot in the arm, really. Bob Quinn wants to build through the draft. And that's why this should logically be a defensive heavy draft. He filled depth and backup position with low level signings of free agents. Spence is not a sack master, as you evidence with your numbers. I'm not sure what Corny's role was on his defense so I'm going to hazard a question that he wasn't a guy with a lot of playing time.

Even with Corny, they need another strongside LDE...but that is not what your premier pass rusher is. Teryl Austen has made a living by taken cast offs and tweener and turning them into productive LDEs. I think they made a mistake last year by putting all their eggs in Devon Taylor's basket. so I don't want that to happen again. However, in a strange twist they discovered that they have some underrated pass rush specialists who can cause havoc on the edges if they can get some support from the interior and behind them with the LB s. Kerry Hyder actually had most of those sacks you mentioned above. With Ziggy healthy again, the DEs aren't as weak as you think. & if you think the Lions are going to find another Ziggy, or Ziggy's replacement in this draft, it isn't happening.


If they're not at least looking for a defensive end, they've certainly spent a lot of time and energy looking for something you allege don't even want. If that's the case, I'll know for next year not to put as much trust in team visits for the Lions. But for now, I let that list influence my decision making on this mock draft quite a bit. Even with early picks that didn't correspond to that list such as Malik Hooker to Los Angeles, I put in my commentary that I might be overestimating how much they want someone like him.

Myth wrote:
But at 21 they can find a playmaking LB. And they need one DT who can close on a QB every once in a while from the middle. That is the scheme. That is how it's built. Starting DTs can be found 2nd round on, not just the 1st round. If they strengthen the middle they improve the whole defense.

Absolutely they can. It's entirely possible they will go with Zach Cunningham at #21. But in both mock drafts, I feel like I addressed playmaking linebacker. It looks from my perspective that your complaint is more than I don't have the Lions doubling up on playmaking linebacker in what is imo a weak 4-3 linebacker draft. That being said, I think Taco Charlton is the frontrunner to be the pick at #21 and while I don't think Derek Barnett will fall out of the top 15, I don't think the Lions could pass on him if he did. You've mentioned before that the Lions are willing to throw out their plans if the BPA is there and from my perspective, that's absolutely what I did for the Lions in these mocks. Heck, I had Jarrad Davis as the Lions second round pick in the alternate mock draft and I think it's actually more likely he could be the Lions first round pick. That was just how the second mock played out. I tried to mix things up in the second mock as best as I could, but even then there was some repetition.

Myth wrote:
I think you are expecting way more from Spence than Lion fans are. I'm not sure what implication his contract has for the future, but I've heard no Lions analyst say that he is the answer in the middle nor that he is a huge commitment. But if so, they've walked away from huge contracts and bit the bullet on dead money before. I understand what you're saying and believe you are wrong to put such an emphasis on DE over DT. I think they are both needs, I just don't see how this defense works without pressure from a 3T. Spence will help against the run game, i expect. I hope he can shoot a gap like he did not do in Tampa, but I'm not counting on it.


It's entirely possible that I am. Given the near complete absence of trades, it's a guarantee that the draft will not actually play out like this. That being said, I think it's a good bet (not a lock by any stretch) that the Lions are at least looking at the drafting a defensive end some time early.

Myth wrote:
Eh. I think you can get a playmaker at LB with #21. Haloti is a part time player at this point. BQ made the somewhat questionable comment IMO that he likes the line depth on both sides of the ball and that he thinks the Dbs are pretty good. Noticeable was his lack of comment about the LB Corp. Maybe he doesn't go for DT or DE at all and makes buggers of us all Smile


At the risk of misrepresenting what you're saying, given how I have the Lions addressing linebacker in the second round of both mock drafts, it looks more like you're asserting this will happen more than it can happen.

Myth wrote:
After Tate, Jones, Ebron, Riddick, & Abdullah I don't think I need another slot receiver to compel you.


Given how little the Lions have at WR after Tate and Jones and how many catches Boldin had last year, you would be wrong. IMO, there are few if any teams that are as thin at wide receiver as the Lions are, and if there are any, I would expect those teams to address WR in this draft too. I would count Cleveland as one of them and I only have them drafting WR in one of these two mocks, but if I had written a fifth round, the one where I didn't have them drafting a wide receiver would have Ryan Switzer as the first pick in round five to team up with Mitch Trubisky.

Myth wrote:
Those #3 WR's function is mainly as backups to Tate and Jones. 2 plays a game maybe if they are lucky are all they could be used for. You keep throwing absolutes around like i said they won't pick a DE. No. I didn't say that won't pick a receiver. I could definitely see a TE pick. Or they are definitely going to pick 2 LBs in this draft. I'd love it, but don't expect it. And I mentioned the offensive players in this draft they probably will value. ... but you're focused on a slot wr to the exclusion of all else.

I'm just telling you where a high to mid draft pick would make the most impact. I know my team.


According to Rotoworld's Josh Norris, the Lions used 11 personnel 76% of the time last season. Number three wide receiver is just a backup you say?

Myth wrote:
If you see half a picture, it is hard to understand the perspective. The numbers are part of a story. And more like page markers than narratives. If that's what you are basing your knowledge upon you need to look deeper. You cannot possibly know all the players the Lions have talked to or scouted. I've tried and it's beyond what is published and there is too much and simultaneously not enough information.

That you won't take advantage of someone knowledgeable about their team is ... though not unexpected, still disheartening. I'm not sure why you think you have superior knowledge of the Lions. But I've been watching them religiously for roughly 40 years. Discussing them with the smartest lion fans i can find for 20 years.

How long have you immersed yourself in the Lions?


Long enough to know there isn't a consensus about what the Lions should or will do. I've even seen some Lions fans argue that they don't need cornerback help at all.

Beyond that, you are not a soothsayer. None of us are, certainly myself included. Being a long time fan of a team doesn't mean you know for certain what they're going to do any more than some random guy writing mock drafts. Vikings fans were sure their team would pass on Trae Waynes in favor of Teddy Bridgewater's college WR: Devante Parker (and that's to say nothing about the Adrian Peterson to Dallas trade they all thought was right around the corner for two years). Chargers fans had a pretty strong consensus going that they were going to draft either an offensive lineman or Jalen Ramsey to replace Eric Weddle last year. I saw Browns fans complain seemingly every time a mock draft projected them to select Danny Shelton at #12. Bears fans had similar complaints claiming over and over that they didn't need a nose tackle and they weren't going to draft one. They didn't take Shelton at seven, but they did draft Eddie Goldman a round later to play nose tackle. It doesn't mean any of what you've said is wrong, but it also means I've learned not to take what fans of teams say as gospel. Because none of us is a profit.
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