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Vince Young vs. Matt Jones
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maduka


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First let me say that the comparisons to Vick are very legitamate. Think about it. Vick coming out of College was not a good passer at all. Both are fast. Young could be as fast as Matt Jones, but not faster then vick. So the comparisons are not far off. But here's the catch Young is a Junior, we're judging him on two years of work. One of those years he didn't even get to start until later in the season. Last year was his first year as the undisputed starter.

About that vince young can't throw crackback

At 60% last year his completion percentage is the best after two years of any longhom QB. He can throw the deep ball very well, he struggles with short routes. The reason it seems like he isn't a good passer, is because last year was the first year w/o Roy Williams. So he had to find a new favorite target, mainly the TE's. If you watch the Rose Bowl, the TE's are the main ones getting passes from Vince.

There was also a game last season versus Kansas that Vince threw the winning TD. It was a tough pass too. He had to fit it in between two defenders, plus the WR was drifting left to the out of bounds mark. Heck of a throw, heck of a play. He also led texas to an amazing comeback from behind victory over Oklahoma State. The longhorns were down 35-14 at the half. And Vince brought them back from the dead and they scored 42 straight pts to win the game 35-56. In the game Vince completed 18 for 21 passes and two td's for 85% completion %. And don't forget about the rose bowl. He completed 57% of his passes (16-28 ) for 180 yards and a TD. He can use both his feet and his arm. He has shown at times that he can be a Brilliant passer.

To show you that he can read defenses, Watch the Rose bowl, 95% of the time U of M was in a zone. Young was not just dumping it off all the time. There were instances that he threw the ball over the zone for completions. So TECH FAN you don't know what you are talking about.

He does need to work on his mechanics and his int's (12td's to 11 int's last year) but he is a good passer. Not great, but good. But heres the thing, he has the talent and the desire to be a great QB and honestly thats all you need. Plus with his receivers finally getting better and growing up a bit, watch out for the Long horns WR's next year. Last year they had one senior and a bunch of Freshman WR's.

They've got a 6-5 dude named Limas Sweed who is a big physical receiver. They also have a couple of 6-3 WR's that are speed demons Myron Hardy and George Walker. Plus they have a "freshman" coming in next year runs a legit 4.3 his name is Quan Cosby. So don't think that Vince won't pass better next year, he has PLENTY of targets.

Two Weeks after the Rose bowl Vince worked with all his WR's every tuesday and Thursday. He wanted them to be focused and to remain calm so they can work on their on the field chemistry. I think this year will be his best passing year yet. And if Selvin Young can step in where Cedric left off, Longhoms running game could be just as Lethal as last year.
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RD


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2958
Location: Long Beach, CA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young does not throw the deep ball well. If the pass is more than 15 yards down field, his accuracy is as poor as it gets. The only reason his completion % was so high was because all he did was dump it off.
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maduka


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read my last post again. He didn' t have a Experienced crew of Receivers last year. But he does throw the deep ball better than short passes. I'm a Texas fan. I know. He threw to TE's mostly last year. How many TE deep threats do you know? two out of three of their leading receivers last year were tight ends.

He threw 1 deep ball to Limas Sweed in the Red River Shootout. When Roy Williams, Sloan Thomas, and B.J. Johnson were there, he threw many deep balls. You may think he doesn't but the kid has a cannon.

To show you that he can read defenses, Watch the Rose bowl, 95% of the time U of M was in a zone. Young was not just dumping it off all the time. There were instances that he threw the ball over the zone for completions.

I can't stand when people make unsubstantiated comments. He can't throw, he doesn't throw the deep ball well. If you don't have any proof, don't say anything. You obviously don't watch Longhorn football if you make such unintelligent statements.
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mr.knowitall


Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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Location: In bed with your mom. REEYEEH REEYEEH REEYEEH!!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me wrote:


Comparing him to Jones is premature at this point. Anyone who tries, in my opinion, hasn't watched enough of Jones.

He's certainly more fluid a runner than Jones, but that's not saying much. Now, I'm not saying Young isn't fluid, btw. He's remarkably fluid. I'm just saying it doesn't take much to be more fluid than Jones, who's running style is about as awkward as they come. My grandmom is a more fluid runner. One of Jones' biggest fans, ex-Jones skeptic Ray Perkins (who I think announced both of Jones' 7 OT victories), said he looks like a cow on ice when juking people out. Vince, though, runs like a gazelle. Elegant. If style is more important than substance, then Vince is light years ahead of Jones.

If you're looking for the guy that's harder to catch and harder to tackle, though, it's actually Jones - even though he looks anything but agile or fast. And if you're looking for the better passing QB, it's Jones - even though his passing game also looks ugly at times, whether you're talking about his decision making or his floating passes. (Looks are deceiving here too, though, as he gets away with stuff far more than normal QBs do.)

Now, where Vince might have an advantage in the pros, assuming he moves to WR, is in route running. Personally, I don't think Jones will ever run precise routes, and those expecting him to show much improvement here might be sorely disappointed. My guess is that most new Matt Jones fans who love him based on his numbers might be in for a pretty big letdown when they first start watching him (unless he starts with a bang). I could be wrong, but I think he'll simply always look pretty darn raw at WR.

It may not matter, though. The first route in that oft downloaded clip from the NFL Combine, where they showed SR bowl practice highlights, showed Jones lumber a few yards downfield, "sell" an outside move, and cut in. Well, it wasn't pretty, and the move was certainly not one you'd write home about. But what happened? He somehow managed to gain about 3 or 4 yards of separation anyway. He was wide open, even with his lumbering stride and ugly moves. He shouldn't have been. But he was. And that's typical of Jones. He jukes defenders out of their shoes all day long with one awkward step. He doesn't look quick, with moves like Barry Sanders or Mike Vick, but that one long step leaves defenders grabbing just as much air.
If Jones has such a horrible running style that is so unfluid. Howcome in the 40, 3 cone, and both shuttles he ran faster and more agile then any of the top 10 WRs in this years draft. Check his combine and work out times compared to the other WRs in the draft.

M.Jones at 6'6" 242lbs 4.39-40, 4.11-short, 11.07-long, 6.65-3 cone
B.Edwards 6'3" 210 4.48-40, 4.38-short, 6.87-3 cone
M.Williams 6'4 230 4.58-40, 4.23-short, 6.98 3cone
T.Williamson 6'1 197 4.44-40, 4.03-short, 11.19-long
R.White 6'1 204 4.45-40, 4.01 short, 11.56-long, 7.19-3 cone
C.Thorpe 6'1 190 4.37-40, 4.31-short, 7.15-3 cone
R.Parrish 5'9 172 4.40-40, 4.22-short, 11.08-long, 6.69-3 cone
R.Brown 6'1 195 4.47-40,
F.Gibson 6'4 196 4.41-40,
L.Brackins 6'4 208 4.58-40
C.Bragg 6'1 184 4.51-40, 4.40-short, 11.87-long, 7.50-3 cone

So considering that info, its hard to think he runs akward let alone like your grandma, when he ran faster than all of them and in the highlights was very impressive running past Texas CBs and my opinion of Jones is the senior bowl is that it was good perfromance. Because he did sell his route which is the hardest part of being a WR. Yes he needs more experience running routes and selling them but that was not akward the way he sold that route. The QB only threw the ball his way 3 times so 2 catches and a touchdown with a permissable drop is a good performance. Yes anytime the ball touches your hands you need to catch it thats the rule but that pass was very ugly and out of his position. I think with some experience in the NFL Jones will be a great WR.
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mr.knowitall


Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

also Young is a 4.4 guy. He isn't faster than Jones but he may eventually become a good QB.
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Me


Joined: 18 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong, Knowitall, I think Jones is as fast, as quick, and as agile as they come. And when you put that kind of speed and quickness in a body that's taller than 6'6" and bigger than 240lbs, with a 40" VJ, well, you can see why everyone's talking 1st round now even though he'll have to change positions.

He just doesn't *look* like he's as fast or quick as they come. He's not smooth looking like Charlie Ward, and he doesn't look as quick or fast as Mike Vick (even if his 40 time is arguably more impressive - an electronic 4.4 in Indy versus a handtimed 4.37 on a faster track). Jones *looks* awkward, even though he's always been the best athlete on the field. And even though doubters abound, those that have seen him play a bunch know he's as good at making the other team's quickest defender look silly as Ward or Vick. You think you've got him covered and then you're grabbing air and falling on your face in his dust.

He just doesn't look terribly elegant when doing it. To the uninitiated he can look, well, a bit odd. Not what you might expect from a guy with his measurables, whose fans talk about his ability to juke and outrun defenders like he was Barry Sanders.

And that (combined with his inability to get up for practices or drills like he does for ball games, and the fact that pads don't slow him down at all) is actually part of the reason he plays even faster and quicker than his impressive times. Defenders always misjudge their position in relation to where he is and where he's going to be, taking worse angles than the already bad ones they'd take when trying to tackle anyone else as quick or as fast as he is. And it might very well be the same with CBs trying to defend him. You think he's covered, and then - before you know it - with one or two long strides, he's got separation. You're beat.

It's also why I think some new fans might be disappointed if he takes a while to adapt. He just might not look as fast or as quick as they're expecting (and as fast or as quick as he really is).
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maduka


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Texas was recruiting Vince Young the recruited him at QB. But every other schools that he visited had visions of Vince at Receiver. Good example is LSU they had him at they're camp, they tried him out at receiver. They said he dominated the CB prospects they had in camp. But he didn't want to be a WR he wanted to be a QB. check out the HB pass that Romonce Taylor threw to him in the Colorado game last year. Vince had someone on him plus got interfeered with and still made the catch. If he had to play WR he'd make a seemless transition.....
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primetime21335


Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 6620
Location: The Creme de la Creme
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigVezzy wrote:
primetime21335 wrote:
i'd draft vince at qb too, matt jones sucked at qb, at least vince has some qb talent.


Its funny that MJ has no "QB Talent" but his numbers are...well better than the great Vince Young

Why is Vince young getting all this attention for being a great player. What has he done to get all this heisman and top player billing that Matt Jones didn't do better? Look at his stats


2003 Cmp% 58.7/Pass YDS 1,155/TD 6/INT 7/RAT 130.6
Rush YDS 998/YPA 7.4/TD 11
2004 CMP% 59.5/Pass YDS 1,669/TD 11/INT 10/RAT 130.0
RUSH YDS 887/YPA 6.1/TD 10

Now look at Jones #

Matt Jonesí Career Statistics

2004 Pass YDS 2073/CMP% 57.2/YPA 7.9/TD 15 /INT12/RAT 132.8
Rush YDS 622/YPA 7.5/Rush TD 6
2003 Pass YDS 1917/CMP% 57.4/YPA 8.3/TD 18/INT 7/RAT 147.1
Rush YDS 707/YPA 7.4/Rush TD 8
2002 Pass YDS 1592/CPA% 52.1/YPA 6.8/TD 16/INT 8/RAT 125.0
Rush YDS 614/YPA 4.8/Rush TD 5
2001 -Pass YDS 275/ CMP% 44.4/YPA 10.2/TD 4/INT 2/RAT 156.7
Rush YDS 616/YPA 8.3/TD 5

Matt jones stats as a Junior where better than Crouchs when he won the heisman, the only reason why he was not a household name is because he played for Arkansas not a Top notch school. The same reason why Young gets all the talk about being great...because he plays for Texas

I do think him and Jones have things in common and for most they are the same type player, BUT Jones is a better QB and will be a better WR than VY. If VY played for baylor instead of texas you would never hear about him just like most folks never heard about MJ

Then if you think about it Young plays on a team that has been in the top 5 every year except this one in recuiting. Thats like playing on an all-star team compaired to the level of players that Jones played with. Then also consider that Jones numbers would have been ever better if he didn't have to split time under center his first 3 years. Then look at the confernces BIG XII/ SEC that they played in. In the past 2/3 years there have been a few very good (BIG 12) teams OU/TEX/KState/OSU against (SEC) LSU/TENN/UGA/AURB/FL/OLE Miss (WITH ELI). Not to get in a pissing match about which confenrence is better but during MJ/VY time IMO the SEC has been the stronger of the 2.

Youngs mechanics are the worst ever. The way he flings it side arm totally takes his 6'5" height from him and makes it like a 5"10" QB back there. I would serious doubt unless they get someone in there quick to help him out that he would be a day one selection as a QB. What I mean buy that is if he went into the draft like crouch did sayin he would only play QB in the NFL. The rumors that where going around where that VY is leaving after this year...That is what he told the kid Perilloux that had commited to texas the ended up going to LSU

As I stated before the 2 have allot of things in common, but as of today MJ is the better QB, and he can run faster, jump higher, and has better hands than VY.


that argument that u put up against me can be put down quickly.

1: stats dont translate into skill, lemme ask you, wat do nfl teams think of jason white?

2: VY has two more years to improve, if you look at ur all important stats jones actually didn worse in his sr yr than his jr year. VY has 2 more years buddy, that is a long time in terms of qb progression.


also, for everyone here who thinks i'm a VY lover or w/e they are completley mistaken. i watched the rose bowl too ya know, and i'm a big fan of mich and texas, i was rooting for mich though. the entire time i was yelling to my dad and grandad that michigan needs to QB SPY YOU FRIGGIN IDIOTS YOUNG HAS TERRIBLE ACCURACY HE LOOKS TO RUN FIRST!!!!!. and its true, he does have poor accuracy and he DOES look to run first, it was easy to tell wtaching the game.

i'm not that big of a fan of him personally, im just simply stating that IHMO that he still has a chance of being a QB at the next level.


its really annoying in this forum how if u say u like one player, or if u state an opinion on one player, you automatically LOVE them. i mean some ppl do love players and have major biasts, but just b/c i think vince young can be a qb, or i think derrick johnson will not get past pick 10, doesnt meen i'm in love w/ them, or even in love w/ texas b/c i'm not. i like pgh and mich more than them.
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BigVezzy


Joined: 30 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its really annoying in this forum how if u say u like one player, or if u state an opinion on one player, you automatically LOVE them. i mean some ppl do love players and have major biasts, but just b/c i think vince young can be a qb, or i think derrick johnson will not get past pick 10, doesnt meen i'm in love w/ them, or even in love w/ texas b/c i'm not. i like pgh and mich more than them.

I dont beleive that I said that you "loved" VY. What I did say was that he was not and will not be the QB that Jones is/was and I was justifing why I think that.

and for

1: stats dont translate into skill, lemme ask you, wat do nfl teams think of jason white?

You would have something there if we where comparions was between a drop back passer and a scrabler, but we are not. We are talking about 2 QB's that play the exact same, that both played in roughly the same offense, so using there stats "IS" an effective way to judge there ability.

Once again not saying you idolize VY, My post was a response to your opionion that he is a better QB than MJ
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WizardofhOgZ


Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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Location: Grapevine, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
if you look at ur all important stats jones actually didn worse in his sr yr than his jr year.


Primetime, you must remember that Jones was the only returning starter on offense for Arkansas this past season (his senior year). Also understand that he was a sitting duck the last two games (against MSU and a very good LSU team) when a severly strained groin took his outstanding mobility away from him. And - being honest - the numbers from the 2 years are not all that much different.

And - maduka - it's only 1 little percentage point . . . but that 60% that looks so nice when you "claim it" - but was really 59.2% - or, if you're rounding, 57%. (Jones was 57.2%). There's no need to pad the stats for cosmetic purposes.

(maduka - sorry for butchering your board name earlier - an honest "typo". I may disagree with someone from time to time, but I don't go for the sophomoric smack stuff)


Last edited by WizardofhOgZ on Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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maduka


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamaduka? That's funny I would think that you were a junior high kid If I didn't know any better. That's clever.

His percentage is rounded up of course. And the main reason I've done that, is to show that he is a much more accurate QB that people give him credit for. Me being a texas fan, I have seen Vince do a lot of good things with his arm. And he has great potential to be a good passer. He will improve he has time.
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pboyk12


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all these stats and forty times and whatnot, it seems that everyone is missing the point. Neither Jones nor Young will play QB at the next level. You guys are looking at the wrong stuff. What you look for in a QB is not just arm strength...it's also not just 40 times. When you look at either, you see amazing athletes who can take it to the 'zone at any time. When you look at them drop back to pass, you look for a guy who has poise and confidence what he's reading and seeing in front of him. All the QB's in the pros have the physical ability, its the reads and decision making that separates the great ones in this league. The best indicator of confidence in the pocket is the QB's feet. This is what proves that VY isn't capable in the pocket. If you look at him in games this year (even the Kansas game,) you will see that he never looks like a confident QB. Even that last throw in Kansa, an outstanding one, was the result of VY moving out of the pocket a little prematurely. As for Jones being a better QB than Young...I think it was UT that was a top five team this year and not Arkansas. Winning is more important than all the pro agility statistics in the world, and neither of these guys would be able to win at the QB position on the next level. There is a reason they are moving Jones to WR, and they will do that in two years, barring any miracles, to VY.
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speedkillz33


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i honestly think that Vince Young will work on his accuracy in the next two years, thats what you all are seeming to forget that he has two more years. That is a long time to develop into a better passer. I also think alot of teams are going to be willing to take him as a Qb just because of the possibility that he might be the next mike vick. I mean who really knows. I saw Vince young transform last year from the beginning of the season to the end. He was a totally different player. And if he continues growing as a Qb he should be a future good Qb in the nfl.
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primetime21335


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wats up 33 wrote:
i honestly think that Vince Young will work on his accuracy in the next two years, thats what you all are seeming to forget that he has two more years. That is a long time to develop into a better passer. I also think alot of teams are going to be willing to take him as a Qb just because of the possibility that he might be the next mike vick. I mean who really knows. I saw Vince young transform last year from the beginning of the season to the end. He was a totally different player. And if he continues growing as a Qb he should be a future good Qb in the nfl.


i feel the same way. i didnt see him transform from begining to end, but i've heard countless times he's a very hard worker and, like you said, he has two more years to learn and play.


and to the ppl who say as if its a fact taht vince young has already been labeled a wideout by nfl scouts where are you getting your information? everyone else is speculating here but you guys seem to have some power that lets you see into every nfl gm's mind in two years.

the fact is you might be wrong, VY might become a good qb. to say that he just wont and that he just will be a WR is so stupid and thick headed, players transform completley over the course of just one year, ESPECIALLY QB'S. i'm talking the simply look like diff. ppl.

look at drew brees. look at jason campell. campell preseason probably would not have even been drafted now he'll probably be gone by the end of the 2nd round.

qb's seem to find the light, and w/ two more years to go, the light may just be around the corner for a qb who has been working his butt off and has all the talent.
he started some as a redshirt fresh. then all season as a soph. then all next year. if he doesnt explode next year he'll stay around to his sr. year.


thats ALOT of time. i still give the kid a chance, i still think he'll be a nfl qb.
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pboyk12


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He does have two more years, but I'm looking at it from a perspective of arm strength or accuracy or all the other measurables. That stuff can be worked on. What you can't measure is the "It" intangible for quarterbacks. You can see it in them, some just don't have it. Young is a great player, a good kid, and hard worker, but he doesn't have what it takes to be a NFL calibre QB. He may decide he wants stay there, and he may even get drafted there. However, he will never be sucessful at that position in the NFL...period. He is immensely dangerous at the college level. I would start him on any college team. Just not any pro teams.
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